Comments on: Time to Say Goodbye: Are You Keeping the Bad and Terminating the Good? http://www.ere.net/2009/01/27/time-to-say-goodbye-are-you-keeping-the-bad-and-terminating-the-good/ Recruiting News, Recruiting Events, Recruiting Community, Social Recruiting Tue, 14 Feb 2012 01:03:49 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Wendell Williams http://www.ere.net/2009/01/27/time-to-say-goodbye-are-you-keeping-the-bad-and-terminating-the-good/comment-page-1/#comment-10277 Wendell Williams Tue, 27 Jan 2009 22:05:11 +0000 http://www.ere.net/?p=5759#comment-10277 Thanks Cindy...sometimes I feel like the only one looking out for both the organization and the individual. Thanks Cindy…sometimes I feel like the only one looking out for both the organization and the individual.

]]> By: Martin Snyder http://www.ere.net/2009/01/27/time-to-say-goodbye-are-you-keeping-the-bad-and-terminating-the-good/comment-page-1/#comment-10276 Martin Snyder Tue, 27 Jan 2009 22:04:02 +0000 http://www.ere.net/?p=5759#comment-10276 Cindy no doubt that when performance is too far off the curve, all the donuts in the world make no difference. But how many times have we seen in the worlds of sports and politics (as examples) where teams gel because non-performance factors- or more to the point, of factors that help a group perform but are not the usual metrics ? How many times does a player get traded, with no change at all to his or her individual attributes, and we see a team or a season get remade ? Heck, I can recall cases where a player is actually hurt and not performing at all, and yet still driving a team to greater results.... We have to remember that human beings and human interactions are so very complex- yea I know all about I/O psychology and the science behind much of the assessment industry; it has its place, it can be very effective, but in the context of WW's article today, you can assess yourself right out of business. Moneyball has its uses, but it's not the final answer and assessment needs to begin to deal with hypercomplex group dynamics. Cindy no doubt that when performance is too far off the curve, all the donuts in the world make no difference. But how many times have we seen in the worlds of sports and politics (as examples) where teams gel because non-performance factors- or more to the point, of factors that help a group perform but are not the usual metrics ?

How many times does a player get traded, with no change at all to his or her individual attributes, and we see a team or a season get remade ?

Heck, I can recall cases where a player is actually hurt and not performing at all, and yet still driving a team to greater results….

We have to remember that human beings and human interactions are so very complex- yea I know all about I/O psychology and the science behind much of the assessment industry; it has its place, it can be very effective, but in the context of WW’s article today, you can assess yourself right out of business.

Moneyball has its uses, but it’s not the final answer and assessment needs to begin to deal with hypercomplex group dynamics.

]]> By: Cindy Blackwell http://www.ere.net/2009/01/27/time-to-say-goodbye-are-you-keeping-the-bad-and-terminating-the-good/comment-page-1/#comment-10275 Cindy Blackwell Tue, 27 Jan 2009 21:33:39 +0000 http://www.ere.net/?p=5759#comment-10275 Wendell, your article grabbed my attention and kept it - I thought it was a great read and very informative, and found myself nodding in agreement. I'll be the first to admit that I'm certainly no expert in measuring performance however I'd like to make a few comments in response to Martin's examples. Having people who remember birthdays and bring in donuts is nice to have - but shouldn't those behaviours be encouraged of the team as 'the way we do things around here' in addition to doing their job to a high standard? Having worked alongside, then managed (and managed out) a support person who was fabulous at the fun stuff but continually let his colleagues down by not doing his core role well - I've seen firsthand the effect on the team. Morale and trust drops. Overall productivity drops. If he'd brought in donuts they probably would have loved to tell him where he could stick them - they just wanted to rely on him to do his role so they didn't have to carry his workload. If being a great social networker or brilliant phrasemaker is important to the team - then make it part of the job description. But I don't think being great at one aspect of your role while non-performing in other crucial areas is something we should find acceptable. Wendell, your article grabbed my attention and kept it – I thought it was a great read and very informative, and found myself nodding in agreement.

I’ll be the first to admit that I’m certainly no expert in measuring performance however I’d like to make a few comments in response to Martin’s examples. Having people who remember birthdays and bring in donuts is nice to have – but shouldn’t those behaviours be encouraged of the team as ‘the way we do things around here’ in addition to doing their job to a high standard? Having worked alongside, then managed (and managed out) a support person who was fabulous at the fun stuff but continually let his colleagues down by not doing his core role well – I’ve seen firsthand the effect on the team. Morale and trust drops. Overall productivity drops. If he’d brought in donuts they probably would have loved to tell him where he could stick them – they just wanted to rely on him to do his role so they didn’t have to carry his workload.

If being a great social networker or brilliant phrasemaker is important to the team – then make it part of the job description. But I don’t think being great at one aspect of your role while non-performing in other crucial areas is something we should find acceptable.

]]> By: Wendell Williams http://www.ere.net/2009/01/27/time-to-say-goodbye-are-you-keeping-the-bad-and-terminating-the-good/comment-page-1/#comment-10272 Wendell Williams Tue, 27 Jan 2009 21:15:15 +0000 http://www.ere.net/?p=5759#comment-10272 I doubt any educated test professonal would agree with you. I doubt any educated test professonal would agree with you.

]]> By: Martin Snyder http://www.ere.net/2009/01/27/time-to-say-goodbye-are-you-keeping-the-bad-and-terminating-the-good/comment-page-1/#comment-10270 Martin Snyder Tue, 27 Jan 2009 20:42:51 +0000 http://www.ere.net/?p=5759#comment-10270 The "measure people fairly and accurately" part WW. It should read "measure teams fairly and accurately" and then "measure leadership fairly and accurately", as keith points out.... The “measure people fairly and accurately” part WW.

It should read “measure teams fairly and accurately” and then “measure leadership fairly and accurately”, as keith points out….

]]> By: Wendell Williams http://www.ere.net/2009/01/27/time-to-say-goodbye-are-you-keeping-the-bad-and-terminating-the-good/comment-page-1/#comment-10269 Wendell Williams Tue, 27 Jan 2009 20:30:14 +0000 http://www.ere.net/?p=5759#comment-10269 I really don't understand what this argument is about: 1) decide what you want your company to be; 2) decide what skills each individual needs to be successful; 3) measure people fairly and accurately; and, 4) make your retention decisions accordingly. What part of that do you disagree with? I really don’t understand what this argument is about: 1) decide what you want your company to be; 2) decide what skills each individual needs to be successful; 3) measure people fairly and accurately; and, 4) make your retention decisions accordingly.

What part of that do you disagree with?

]]> By: Martin Snyder http://www.ere.net/2009/01/27/time-to-say-goodbye-are-you-keeping-the-bad-and-terminating-the-good/comment-page-1/#comment-10266 Martin Snyder Tue, 27 Jan 2009 20:05:54 +0000 http://www.ere.net/?p=5759#comment-10266 WW, when you say "One cannot accurately evaluate the attributes of an apple when it becomes part of a bigger whole" are you not making my point ? Real world examples that I have personally seen: A five person sales team where one of the five has lower call volume, lower sales volume, and is assessed as having weaker organization skills, weaker product knowledge, and more sensitivity to rejection. Your article would say: dump her. In the real world, she is an elegant phrase maker who spends just a little time coaching the others and editing their proposals, providing the edge that helps make any number of sales. A six-person admin staff where one of the six misses more work, comes in late, makes more mistakes, and seems to spend half her time chatting with sales and tech folks. Your article says: dump her. In the real world, she is the one who remembers birthdays, who brings in donuts, who organizes off-hours company gatherings, who sooths annoyed callers, and otherwise supports the social web. Get rid of either person and lose a subpar performer ON PAPER. In the real world, you hurt yourself in a meaningful way. Do the right kind of assessing, and then seek a better salesperson with the same language skills, and a better admin with the same social drive, and you might make a moderate improvement. Fail to understand what's really important, and move backwards. Likewise, hiring a second social connector or a second editor is a waste of time and money, since those informal, unspoken roles are already covered. Likewise again, if the other four salespeople were all english majors and the other nine admins are all facebook fiends, those informal roles have zero value. You cant count on just anybody or just any assesment to fill you in..... WW, when you say “One cannot accurately evaluate the attributes of an apple when it becomes part of a bigger whole” are you not making my point ?

Real world examples that I have personally seen:

A five person sales team where one of the five has lower call volume, lower sales volume, and is assessed as having weaker organization skills, weaker product knowledge, and more sensitivity to rejection. Your article would say: dump her. In the real world, she is an elegant phrase maker who spends just a little time coaching the others and editing their proposals, providing the edge that helps make any number of sales.

A six-person admin staff where one of the six misses more work, comes in late, makes more mistakes, and seems to spend half her time chatting with sales and tech folks. Your article says: dump her. In the real world, she is the one who remembers birthdays, who brings in donuts, who organizes off-hours company gatherings, who sooths annoyed callers, and otherwise supports the social web.

Get rid of either person and lose a subpar performer ON PAPER. In the real world, you hurt yourself in a meaningful way.

Do the right kind of assessing, and then seek a better salesperson with the same language skills, and a better admin with the same social drive, and you might make a moderate improvement. Fail to understand what’s really important, and move backwards.

Likewise, hiring a second social connector or a second editor is a waste of time and money, since those informal, unspoken roles are already covered.

Likewise again, if the other four salespeople were all english majors and the other nine admins are all facebook fiends, those informal roles have zero value.

You cant count on just anybody or just any assesment to fill you in…..

]]> By: Keith Halperin http://www.ere.net/2009/01/27/time-to-say-goodbye-are-you-keeping-the-bad-and-terminating-the-good/comment-page-1/#comment-10265 Keith Halperin Tue, 27 Jan 2009 20:02:12 +0000 http://www.ere.net/?p=5759#comment-10265 I believe that Martin has some very good points. Also, if the 80-20 rule applied to work, wouldn't it make sense to increase the productivity of the top 20% by 25%, then fire the bottom 80%? With the savings involved, companies should come out ahead. Question: how does a top 20% janitor, receptionist, A/P clerk, engineer, HR coordinator, teacher, marketing manager, tech support, or bus driver differ from those in the bottom 80%? Some skills are hard to quantify. Also, this premise assumes that the “ends” (productivity) are supreme and the “means” to the ends are insignificant. Finally, at what level in the organizational hierarchy does incompetence and inefficiency become immune to scrutiny/punishment? Clearly, a sizeable number of our failed corporate leaders are doing quite well despite the fact that their companies' have lost billions of dollars and ruined thousands of lives of their customer/clients, employees, and their communities. Cheers, Keith “What’s good for the Goose is good for the Gander” Halperin keithsrj@sbcglobal.net 415.586.8265 I believe that Martin has some very good points. Also, if the 80-20 rule applied to work, wouldn’t it make sense to increase the productivity of the top 20% by 25%, then fire the bottom 80%? With the savings involved, companies should come out ahead. Question: how does a top 20% janitor, receptionist, A/P clerk, engineer, HR coordinator, teacher, marketing manager, tech support, or bus driver differ from those in the bottom 80%? Some skills are hard to quantify. Also, this premise assumes that the “ends” (productivity) are supreme and the “means” to the ends are insignificant. Finally, at what level in the organizational hierarchy does incompetence and inefficiency become immune to scrutiny/punishment? Clearly, a sizeable number of our failed corporate leaders are doing quite well despite the fact that their companies’ have lost billions of dollars and ruined thousands of lives of their customer/clients, employees, and their communities.

Cheers,
Keith “What’s good for the Goose is good for the Gander” Halperin keithsrj@sbcglobal.net 415.586.8265

]]> By: Wendell Williams http://www.ere.net/2009/01/27/time-to-say-goodbye-are-you-keeping-the-bad-and-terminating-the-good/comment-page-1/#comment-10264 Wendell Williams Tue, 27 Jan 2009 19:44:28 +0000 http://www.ere.net/?p=5759#comment-10264 That is comparing an apple with a smoothie containing an apple. One cannot accurately evaluate the attributes of an apple when it becomes part of a bigger whole. There are too many other factors confounding the mix. Just as one cannot evaluate whether someone has specific skills (such as intelligence, problem solving, planning, and so forth), by observing the activities of a group. That is what causes stereotypes, prejudices and hiring mistakes. Google Aristotelian vs. Galilean logic to see what I mean. That is comparing an apple with a smoothie containing an apple. One cannot accurately evaluate the attributes of an apple when it becomes part of a bigger whole. There are too many other factors confounding the mix. Just as one cannot evaluate whether someone has specific skills (such as intelligence, problem solving, planning, and so forth), by observing the activities of a group. That is what causes stereotypes, prejudices and hiring mistakes. Google Aristotelian vs. Galilean logic to see what I mean.

]]> By: Martin Snyder http://www.ere.net/2009/01/27/time-to-say-goodbye-are-you-keeping-the-bad-and-terminating-the-good/comment-page-1/#comment-10263 Martin Snyder Tue, 27 Jan 2009 16:59:28 +0000 http://www.ere.net/?p=5759#comment-10263 Yes: do the vastly more difficult and expensive work of assessing groups as dynamic systems- the current model is like trying to do weather forecasting using temps or pressures by themselves; you can describe OK, but you won't be able to predict very well.... Keep in mind that this applied to team and group work-some jobs are highly individual and can be assessed on that basis. Yes: do the vastly more difficult and expensive work of assessing groups as dynamic systems- the current model is like trying to do weather forecasting using temps or pressures by themselves; you can describe OK, but you won’t be able to predict very well….

Keep in mind that this applied to team and group work-some jobs are highly individual and can be assessed on that basis.

]]> By: Wendell Williams http://www.ere.net/2009/01/27/time-to-say-goodbye-are-you-keeping-the-bad-and-terminating-the-good/comment-page-1/#comment-10260 Wendell Williams Tue, 27 Jan 2009 16:10:04 +0000 http://www.ere.net/?p=5759#comment-10260 Hello, Martin..we are in violent agreement! -Individual productivity is often difficult to measure because of mitigating factors -Leader skills are generally best measured by feedback from subordinates -The only way to accurately evaluate an individual person's skill-set is to isolate and measure them...individual skills often get lost in the fog of group dynamics...Do you know of any other way to separate the two? Hello, Martin..we are in violent agreement!
-Individual productivity is often difficult to measure because of mitigating factors
-Leader skills are generally best measured by feedback from subordinates
-The only way to accurately evaluate an individual person’s skill-set is to isolate and measure them…individual skills often get lost in the fog of group dynamics…Do you know of any other way to separate the two?

]]> By: SmartBrief on Workforce » Blog Archive » Layoffs that make sense http://www.ere.net/2009/01/27/time-to-say-goodbye-are-you-keeping-the-bad-and-terminating-the-good/comment-page-1/#comment-10258 SmartBrief on Workforce » Blog Archive » Layoffs that make sense Tue, 27 Jan 2009 15:47:18 +0000 http://www.ere.net/?p=5759#comment-10258 [...] Using irrelevant criteria. Seniority, family ties and how badly someone needs a job are all common ways of deciding who to let go. They’re all also really foolish ways. Instead, use this opportunity to analyze your business’s needs, as well as individuals’ performance. This is your chance to prune your organization of underperforming divisions and slacker workers, Wendell Williams writes at ERE.net. [...] [...] Using irrelevant criteria. Seniority, family ties and how badly someone needs a job are all common ways of deciding who to let go. They’re all also really foolish ways. Instead, use this opportunity to analyze your business’s needs, as well as individuals’ performance. This is your chance to prune your organization of underperforming divisions and slacker workers, Wendell Williams writes at ERE.net. [...]

]]> By: Martin Snyder http://www.ere.net/2009/01/27/time-to-say-goodbye-are-you-keeping-the-bad-and-terminating-the-good/comment-page-1/#comment-10257 Martin Snyder Tue, 27 Jan 2009 14:45:32 +0000 http://www.ere.net/?p=5759#comment-10257 Hi WW, it's been awhile since I darkened one of your comment sections..... When you say that "productivity is more than a mental exercise" I have to disagree, because thats EXACTLY what it is in many cases. Leaders influence states of mind, perceptions, and expectations; all mental excercises and all essential to victory in highly competitive situations. Leaders are found at all levels of organizations. Leaders are not generally measured by their own personal output, although sometimes they are. Lastly, you will never convince me of the efficacy of individual assessment in many, (but not all), work situations. Where work is done in groups or teams, assesing indivduals without regard to group dynamics can only give a partial picture, and a possibly damaging one at that. Hi WW, it’s been awhile since I darkened one of your comment sections…..

When you say that “productivity is more than a mental exercise” I have to disagree, because thats EXACTLY what it is in many cases.

Leaders influence states of mind, perceptions, and expectations; all mental excercises and all essential to victory in highly competitive situations. Leaders are found at all levels of organizations. Leaders are not generally measured by their own personal output, although sometimes they are.

Lastly, you will never convince me of the efficacy of individual assessment in many, (but not all), work situations. Where work is done in groups or teams, assesing indivduals without regard to group dynamics can only give a partial picture, and a possibly damaging one at that.

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