Personally I think many of the arguments Pro Ruse Calling are cop outs.. and mainly due to Fear. It is the only way I know how to do this job.. the only way I was taught.. and though I am not comfortable, it seems easier.. so I am going to Defend this tooth and Nail.. Holding this conviction tight to my chest, no matter how obtuse!

Bill, from our conversations, I know you are a Great guy, yes even will say, believe in Ethics very strongly.. so, please understand the following questions are one of curiosity more than anything.. why do you defend ruse calling so vehemently? What do you see as the point in it? Especially when it is NOT even a too that is Necessary to do this job, and do it well>.

I hear so many recruiters tell me, ‘But that’s the way I was taught’, like this is carte blanche to engage in unethical activity. At the end of the day, if you’re shady, you know you are. There are no excuses you can throw out there to justify this behavior to yourself . . . or anyone else.

I can imagine an unethical recruiter having a conversation with their mother, ‘Mom, I have something to tell you – I know you worked hard to raise me, but I find a way to toss out all those values when I go to work. My manager taught me that doing the right thing in staffing is for losers — individuals that don’t want to be big-billers. I’m just a shady person . . . and I love it.’

Todd, again, kudos for stepping up and saying you believe in what’s right and that you don’t tolerate what isn’t. I am the same way and wish I saw more of it at the managerial level in this business.

When I read your post on rusing (they made them do it at Abu Ghraib!) I thought is was just another ‘butter doesn’t melt in my mouth’ post from the great moralists who inhabit this exalted sphere when not feeding the cat.
Then, I noticed your title and employer and reflected that rusing, for you, would be pointless, counterproductive and incredibly dumb.
It’s easy to moralize on issues where you have little stake.
I, for example, never, ever commit adultery with Angelina Jolie, nor drive my car more than 100 mph over the speed limit, nor will I continue to drink after I’ve lost consciousness.
And this will be accounted to me as righteousness to all generations.
Have to go, must run down to the corner. The Lighthouse School has recess now. So many blind people to misdirect and so little time!

Bill Wager
Hunter Green
40 Exchange Place
NY, NY 10005
212-742-0990
billwager@hunter-green.com

My 15 years in the business have been notably absent of ruse in recruiting talent for my clients. We all have different thresholds of rationalization for our behaviors.

I can’t get behind rusing. I don’t advocate it, and will not accept it with the recruiters with whom I work.

Rusing is activity. Sourcing and recruiting without willful deception is accomplishment.

I need to also thank you, Howard. Deb and I got into this horrible fight over Bill during the weekend. Since, as she points out, he’s gone silent everywhere, it appears you’ve saved the day in many ways.

Since the flattery was because of Bill’s gracious words, does this then mean that you have an article about leadership we’ll get to read on Thursday, Howard?

Viva

;) Not sure how my husband will take this…

If Bill will not marry you, I will marry you.

I am free on Thursday in the PM if you want to do it at that time.

Best,

Howard Adamsky

Will you marry me?

Now seriously, this statement is my way of throwing out a sincere compliment to your articulate way of writing. Does anybody out there think I was lying?

It amazes me that so much time has been spend defending a position that apparently doesnt need defending… and I do believe theres a world of difference between saying you washed you hands when you went to the bathroom (when you didn’t) and actively lying every day in the job that you do and not seeing an issue with it because your ‘only lying to the receptionist’.. how many lies is that a day I wonder :), certainly not the occasional little white one, right?

But yes, time to move on, nothing will be resolved, folks will not change their stance based on these 76 (or whatever the numbers end up at.)

Bill, although you may make light of this thread, many see this as the ground floor issue of the problem with exective search folks. Take it for what you will….

Please don’t end this thread and leave us with only Briitany’s breakdown. It’s been the best in years.
Let me say that I admire your patience and good humor in the face of absurdity. I aspire to your grace.

Also there were comments made in that post about intentional versus unintentional lies.

Still believe that in Business, and yes personal life, the best policy is to always do ones best to maintain honesty as a policy..

Still think you wrote an awesome article by the way!

Karen

As I said in the article, harmless rusing where no one is misrepresented, no one gets hurt and generally when no one even knows it happening, should not be a problem. As I then went on to say in response to some of the critics, we all lie at some point in our lives, whether it?s to protect someone, as in this case the candidates confidentiality or many other reasons.

Often we don?t realise we are doing it. For example exaggerating, bragging or even making out that you know about someone and their company when clearly you don?t, as demonstrated in one of the early responses. But we still went round and round.

It really is not black or white but as Eamonn did say previously (honest), there are different shades of grey :-)

I couldn?t help but notice Karen?s latest posting in her group and I really struggled for about a nano second whether to mention it or not, but Karen now says the following:

?I guess in many ways we all lie don’t we? When I am trying to get off the phone with the telemarketer and say sorry on another call, even if I am not.

There is the white lie to help ‘protect’ someone?s feelings, salvage relationships, as a safety measure – and then there is the downright straight lie to gain an advantage over another.. there really is a lot of Grey in between?

As we say in England, Halle ? bloody – lujah.

Now hopefully we really can move on.

Hey, I love you ‘guys’too!
Jon

That?s just the hole getting bigger :-)

If you go back and read the string Tony, and not just pull one out of… well out of thin air :)youll get an idea of what I was commenting on.

I actually think that was the string where you were lambasting Lou Adlers support of John Sullivan when John was recognising Merit Banks (somewhat) gray area of recruiting practices.

Swings and roundabouts eh… good try though..

Maureen, that one may have close to a record…

I best leave this one be now… the discussion is rolling downhill

So, let’s say I take your recruiting call. I tell you I’m not interested in your client’s opportunity because I can’t relocate right now. But I add, ‘Your client is exactly who I’ve always wanted to work for. Call me in a year, because by then my daughter will be a few months away from graduating high school and I’ll be ready to consider a move. PLease keep this in confidence, of course.’

Does all that wind up in your report to your client? Next to my name?

‘For the future of our industry, we must be firm and fixed in our resolve to do this job credibly and with ethics.’

Couldn’t agree more.

‘You say tomato, I say tomaahto ? let’s call the whole thing off!’

;)

I personally don?t have an issue with the word poach. I was just being sarcastic as you will find out if you read back on previous articles on this subject.

When I said it doesn?t matter where candidates come from, I did not mean which company they come from but rather the method in which they were found. (job board or headhunted. etc..) We do share with our clients which companies the candidates are coming from but not the method in which we find them even though we only use search. It doesn?t matter to them as long as they get the candidates. This also avoids confusion if for example we find a candidate through headhunting that happens to have posted their details on Monster. Does your client refuse to pay the fee in this instance?

Like you we have been through the process of providing reports of activity but we stopped it because clients end up controlling you. We prefer now to just present reports if requested, on the candidates we submit for interview only. I would say don?t give too much away about your business activity, but rather just focus on presenting quality candidates. That?s all the client should really be interested in. That?s also why we always prefer to deal with the hiring managers direct rather than HR because HR are the ones that want to control you. The hiring managers just want results.

You mentioned about harmless rusing and how this can evolve into people suggesting they are from SEC or Microsoft. This is my point in the original article. That?s why I differentiated between making up a name or company rather than pretending to be someone that exists and/or from a company that actually exists. I agree wholeheartedly that this is wrong and I did say that in the original article. That?s why I think one or two people have perhaps got carried away, saw the word ruse and responded without reading the article properly.

Nice try Eamonn by the way.