I really enjoy all of the responses to my emails which began as my response to your email, and am herein combining an answer to all of you who have written.

At the risk of being presumptuous (which I most certainly am), I will state that, after over 100 years of ‘employment agencies’ activities (and that is what this activity really is), the employment process is pretty much still the same…except for the insertion of an inordinate number (and more and more as time goes by) of technically* incompentent individuals between the hiring manager and the employee which has further increased the ridiculous number of candidates needed to fill a requirement.

* I am using ‘technical’ in the broad sense to apply to any job slot requiring any specific Education, Experience and Expertise, regardless of discipline.

I agree that one does not have to have specific experience to recruit specifically, and that Recruiters should want to learn everything about the functions of a specific slot, and how that slot relates to contiguous slots vertically and horizontally, and how the department fits into the enterprise, and where the enterprise fits into the industry, and so on through the Product Life Cycle.

Unfortunately, instead of that learning, I still see the widespread use of buzz words and meaningless jargon…sorry for this ‘mud slinging’, which I think of more as ‘personal observations’!

This lack of learning results, in my opinion, to the current total lack of candidate respect on both sides (and the middle) of the equation. Well, this in no longer going to be tolerated.

The Recruiting industry is about to finally evolve into a true ‘Profession’ where both sides (and the middle) employ technically competent people with respect not only for each other, but for the candidate as well.

Buzz words, euphimistic terminology, imaging, branding and all the other terms are going to ‘go south’, and darn soon if our firm has anything to say about it. And as our D&Os have over 300 years combined experience in turn around of hard product manufacturing enterprises, I tend to bet on it!

Many of the suggestions you (and other writers) have made are the very things necessary to accomplish this evolution, and we here at Bogart really appreciate it…believe me…so, PLEASE continue to write!

As practitioners of ‘Quid Pro Quo’, please feel free to request anything you need from us.

I will continue to read all of your wisdom and wit with avid interest, but as we are in a ‘start up’ mode here, I shall, to the relief of some of you (hopefully not all of you), be silent for a while (my associates have a pool as to how long I can keep my mouth shut)….thanks for all the data and, again, continue your writings.

I ‘gotta go’…I have do have a tee time beckoning and the temp is a balmy 74 degrees….

In becoming a specialist there are several things that happen ?
Strong Knowledge is gained of the industry. In knowing the dynamics of the industry there is no learning curve as to where one finds the candidates, what they will be doing, where they will be working, what titles they will have in different companies. There is understanding who will fit better in a particular corporate environment and culture. Knowledge of the salaries in the competitive companies to help expedite the process; Companies will prefer that fact that one understands more than the buzz words, and that there is no concern about a learning curve, and that they can depend on you for future placements.. Which creates a loyalty with client as well.

Placements will happen faster and more efficiently due to industry knowledge and gaining the reputation as being an industry expert. We are able to have access to databases and networks that are predominately in one industry.. it allows for great relationship building, and knowing who to speak to, when much quicker. Develop great friendships of people willing to help you out as they know you will be there with information.

Your clients will also gain confidence on your understanding and knowledge of the trends and Understanding of the Ins? and out?s of the industry. Not only does this make your job easier, but the clients appreciate the knowledge. From this we Gain more positions along the way so that one can fill more jobs.. you will recruit more than one candidate, and now you will have more jobs for the candidates who were not placed with the original job order..

Name recognition ? candidate referrals are easier to get when a friend believes that they are sending a professional to help another friend out

Quite often people call me asking if I would consider working with them. Unless they have been in this industry, my tendency is to decline to offer. This isn?t because I am a snob, or don?t want the help. Unfortunately there is no time to help individuals go through the learning curve for one or two positions. Especially don?t want to be distracted whilst recruiting by having to read many resumes that will be sent with the word refrigeration on them. Trust me, guys who fix refrigerators don?t make my day. In fact, most of my jobs will be based upon management, sales, engineers and high level positions, that cannot come from outside the industry as the clients are interested only in candidates who fit like a glove for strategic reasons. The industry is indeed very complicated, and it is one which I am still learning every day even after 10 years.

I guess we can liken this to the General Practitioner MD, or even lawyer ? versus a specialist. The General Practitioner is good, but would you not prefer someone who is a specialist?

However, in this forum there is a lot of dissention and fingerpointing about who is incompetent or not up to par – mostly from TPRs to corporate recruiters. In this thread in particular, I’ll give the mud slinging award to John. And John, I’ve been around a while, too – before I ever became involved in an HR career, I already knew what you indicated in your response about HVAC. Not from any direct experience, but from a curiosity about the work that people perform.

I’ve worked in large corporations, small companies, state agencies. Different industries from retail to roofing to systems development to mental retardation to accounting and more. I learn my companies, I learn their culture, I learn who does what and how it’s done and why it’s done and how one function interlinks with others within the corporation. Oh, and I ensure that I know who receives their services, the desired outcomes and who the competitors are. I know who is going to drag their feet and how I can get them moving.

I don’t think it’s necessary to bash corporate recruiters nor do I think it’s necessary to bash TPRs. Ultimately our goal is to get a position filled. In my private sector experience, if I couldn’t find them, I would have enlisted someone to help me find them. By the way, John, I never used a TPR because I could find the applicants – even if they were ‘hiding’ a little bit.

Now that I’m in state government without the ability to use a TPR (policies, ugh), there are occasions where I wish I could – because my day is filled with other generalist duties as well. Not because I’m incompetent, John, but because my job is more than recruiting. And that’s how the job is set up, and what I signed on for.

I may be on a different tangent too, it has been known to happen. If a recruiter can’t deliver a candidate that fits the bill, then there is no reasone to maintain the relationship between the internal recruiter and the TPR.

I agree with you that knowledge of law, hiring practices, sourcing, screening, etc. all support the efforts of both the internal recruiter and the 3rd party recruiter and in many cases, knowledge of this from the TPR has kept the hiring process legal because of a lack of this knowledge by either the hiring manager and sometimes, the internal recruiter (it HAS gone in the opposite direction too).

But how crucial is it that a TPR must have worked in the industry that they are servicing? I have have met hundreds of TPRs that are servicing particular industries but have never worked in them. A recruiter worth their salt is going to educate themselves on that industry so they can be effective.

You are right, if the recruiter can’t deliver the goods, whats the point? The market will weed these TPR’s out (just as it will internal recruiters). Those who understand the market they serve with survive and thrive.

So yes, I believe we are both on the same track.

Recruiters will be around, but companies will be more selective in the who they use. They will expect more from their third party vendors, and will want more than a vendor relationship, but a full partnership, loyalty, professionalism, knowledge, diligence, and of course expect them to live up to higher standards.

Has this started yes, indeed. Listen to the H.R managers on these forums, read not with criticism their concerns, but with understanding and respect. There are companies who will expect their recruiters to have full knowledge of the laws surrounding the industry, will expect more ethical behaviors of their recruiters and some have started even asking for recruiters to be members of associations and become certified.

Think of it along the lines of wanting a CPA, versus a regular joe bloe recruiter to slam with paper, and not really understanding the full basis and scope of the jobs

What Mark is saying is online. As an HVAC recruiter it is more than knowing the word Centrifugal, or what a PM is.. But it is understanding what the Companies function is in the HVAC world, exactly what their management style is like; understanding what part that particular role plays in that particular company, and what they do on a day to day basis, who they talk to, when, and why; understanding hiring processes; what is the structure within the company; understanding the dynamics of this particular company; why they are looking, how long; the training they provide, how, when, why.

It is more than just send us resumes and help us fill positions, but instead Companies are beginning to expect recruiters to compliment their existing in-house and outsourced recruiting resources by understanding the needs of and how to work with the hiring authorities of the companies, and understanding the hiring objectives through understanding their corporate environment, style, motivators, and culture.

John, as an HVAC recruiter, working in a Niche within a Niche there is a reputation that must be maintained, both with clients and candidates. When a candidate is placed within a company, it is with the intent that the candidate is going to be there permanently. Does that happen all the time, no, but of course the goal is there. It is also important to understand the why a candidate did not work out, and work with my clients to understand what may have been missed, to help make the next placement that much stronger. Do I take on some of the responsibility of the placements, to a degree yes, as what I do does play a part in it, but is also imperative that understanding where the role of the client plays in it too, so that the next candidate will be a better fit, or to help make suggestions as to how to better improve the process in the future.

As Kevin had mentioned recruiters will need to change their views as to how they do business and If They cannot live up to these expectations, but continue to be the one hit Charlie, there will be a welcome ?purging?, where the will be?s will be distinguished from the wannabes.

As Karen said, maybe the point was missed by one or both of us. I merely pointed out that personnel (Oh, sorry, it’s now ‘H.R.’…sounds like bodies stacked in a warehouse!) had crippled the Recruiter’s ability to maximize (that pseudo verb again) probability of successful, one hit recruiting by interdicting the process of techie to techie communication while, from what I have seen, they themselves have no techie understanding.

As we said in the military, ‘Lead, follow, or get the heck out of the way’.

If HR Internal Recruiters were competent, TPRs would be out of a job! So, I ‘ain’t’ knocking them, cause their incompetence is necessary to the TPR Industry…BUT, as HR can’t lead, and can’t follow, they could make the process more effective (and less expensive) by getting out of the way.

Recruiters will always be around. The cycles go up and down and all around. I have seen EE’s picking apples for a living in the early 60′s, and demanding stock options 20 years later…go figure.

Hang in there and keep commenting…it’s darn healthy for the industry!

JCA

I am not quite certain that we are speaking about the same thing, but, I could be wrong. I certainly have many times before.

In several replies, there seems to be more emphasis on legal issues, company policies and procedures, industry practices, etc. than on old fashioned nuts and bolts.

Those other items are necessary, but only in support of the basic undestanding/comprehension of what a specs calls for and what a candidate can do.

Karen mentioned HVAC. Now, I know more of what I DON’T know than what I DO know about HVAC. I know that HVAC stands for ‘Heating Ventilating & Air Conditioning’. I know that this function can appear when the plant is being constructed and when it is being re-conditioned and when it is being expanded and/or re-configured and during routine maintenance, both preventive and necessary. This covers the horizontal.

I know that there are HVAC Project Engineers (in Facilities and in AE firms), HVAC Design Engineers, HVAC Designers, HVAC Technicians (Systems to Component level), HVAC Installers/Assemblers/Mechanics (On site and Field types), and so on.

This covers the vertical.

I know that there probably are CAD or CAE systems out there especially for HVAC (Maybe ‘CADDS’ or ‘Pro-Engineer’…don’t know, been away a long time).

This covers the ‘tools’.

The above are the items of PRIME importance…the other are secondary and tertiary.

Are we on the same track?

JCA

Thanks for the recognition of what I was attempting to say in my rambling style.

Re the legal issues, we own a legal services firm, and upon re-rentering the recruiting business, are already busy with all the myriad of forms and procedures necessary to comply with legal issues that were unknown back in the old days.

Also, I see that your firm specializes in HVAC (Yes, as an old timer, I know what the acronym means), so I assume that you either came from an HVAC background, or were trained by techies, or trained youself.

When we hired non-techies, our training consisted of prouct cycle orientation from Conceptual Design to post product LS (Logistics Support…a MILITARY term ‘captured by civilians), to facility/plant visitations/tours with explanations as to who did what and how, and what a lathe/micrometer/CAD was used for, and this training continued until the ‘Recruiter’ could properly determine the REAL job specs, not this buzz word nonsense, and could articulate those specs, in a cohesive, narrative format, to the candidate, and finally could determine whether the candidate was truly qualified.

Resumes are, as I have said many times, anachronistic, subjective (frequently formatted by some personnel type) and loaded with unrealistic views of the candidate’s qualifications.

Anyway, good luck with your HVAC recruiting…if you know what HVAC means, you are probably way ahead of what I think is out there in recruiting!

JCA

I have, as I said, been out of many decades (old fogie). It used to be that the hiring manager (techie) talked directly to external recruiter (techie) who spoke with the candidate (techie)…great communication!

There were NO techie types in most ‘employment agencies’ (there were a lot of ex-used car/siding salesmen), and only a few in personnel (primarily in non-exempt).

BUT, personnel had enough sense to allow techie to techie communication so as to minimize (a verb?) submittals/fit ratios.

Then, with the advent of the personnel ‘organization’ complete with VP’s, Directors, Managers, Supervisors, etc., and their mandate that there would be communication techie to techie…that everything would be routed through personnel, and the new breed of personnel contained NO people who could spell techie, it all fell apart.

Now, I’m going to do as you suggest. I’m going to open the YP or the internet, and I’m going to search for recruiters who understand/comprehend the techie world and who do not operate on buzz words, and who know the product life cycle, and the functions both horizontaly and vertically, and who do not submit a bag boy from ‘Ralphs’ when the requirement is for a ‘Packaging Engineer’, or submit a ‘Metropolitan Transit Driver’ when the requirement is for an Engineer experienced with buses’

If I sound a bit negative re my memories of the ‘old days’, let be bore you with an example or two:

The ‘employment representative for a printed circuit board repair facility who, after two years, did not know what ‘solder’ was!

The ‘personnel manager’ for a medical test equipment manufacturer who, after six years, did not know what function test equipment peformed!

Finally, the one that triggered me to quit the biz…the one who worked for a, electronics manufacturer./…she had over 100 resumes submitted by seven ‘agencies’ for two test engineer positions and not ONE resume fit. When we submitted ONE EACH for the two positions, and both fit and were hired (one is still there today, 18 years later!), this young lady stated that we were not to be used because we were ‘unresponsive’ by not submitting more candidates! If I wasn’t there to see it, I would not have believed that such TOTAL ILLOGIC could exist in any human brain…but those are just three of literally hundreds (maybe thousands) of cases experienced over 33 years!

You seem to care about what you do. I might bet you are an exception.

JCA

Now that we’ve clarified that, let me tell you where to find the TPR’s to handle that workload — the yellow pages.

I, or anyone with the intelligence of a bunch of keys, would expect that a hiring manager, or internal recruiter in a specialty industry, would have the mother-wit to outsource (there’s that verb again!) to a tpr who understood the particular cant of that industry. (I look forward to your disquisition on the error contained in the term ‘particular cant’)

If you choose to deal with people who do not understand your language or your industry and so, meet with failure, one would rather tend to attribute that failure to your poor selection rather than to the recruiter who accepted the assignment, who is guilty of bad judgment to a far lesser degree

Would you entrust your car to a mechanic that referred to the engine block as ‘a biscuit’? or dipped it in milk?

If I have misunderstood you in any way — quite possible, of course , engineers being so facile in English as to be able to distinguish verbs — and we poor recruiters being so naturally dense as to not know the difference between a widget and a wodget — I would welcome your clarification.
Bill Wager
Hunter Green
40 Exchange Place
NY, NY 10005
212-742-0990
billwager@hunter-green.com

This isn?t about the Demise of the recruiting industry, but thankfully a refreshing purging of as John so Eloquently put it (LOVED that by the way) of most non-technical people in the recruiting process ?those? sic.. being ‘Pools of ignorance surrounded by dikes of arrogance’

Again we will come back to another quote of John?s regarding the EEE ? experience, education, and expertise has been lacking tremendously in this industry for many years, painfully so. Considering the incredible responsibility, influence and considerable impact that people in the position as recruiters can ultimately have on clients and candidates alike, the only thing that comes to my mind is ?why has it taken so long?? ?

It is time to pay attention because no longer should we continue to think that recruiting will be able to continue to be a hodge podge type of industry, where anything goes, and without having to bear the responsibility of the public safety and welfare. With issues and concerns of Privacy, discrimination and Labor law issues that have been increasingly growing due to the easy, open entry, no bars held.. this industry has been gaining a black eye increasingly

There are many who will dispute this and say, oh, it really isn?t that bad. Actually, it IS THAT bad; recently had the opportunity to come across a list of Recruiting companies that had been indicted for many forms of fraud, corruption, embezzlement and other labor laws. This list was compiled by an attorney who does investigate this industry. Well, I gotta say, not only was I felt that I had just landed into a sewer but was shocked not only by the crimes these individuals committed, but how many of them had been indicted. Penalties ranged from a couple hundred thousand to TENS of millions of dollars with extensive Jail time.

Recruiters deal with a tremendous of this nations population, and the internet has had the ability to make those numbers even higher than ever had thought possible – and since we are dealing with Employment, the most important factor in anyone?s life, for how would they support their families if it were not for their job ? well, of course what we do for a living up quite a few notches.
Today, as I write this the Real Estate industry is going through a high level of legal scrutiny, and as I watch that with awe and shock, it makes me wonder, with all the new regulations and concerns of privacy, not if but when, if we continue as we have been!

Education, experience and expertise are extremely crucial. Agencies that are members of industry organizations such as ASA, NAPS, even SHRM are constantly exposed to changes in policies, procedures, etc. We are constantly educating ourselves because we are just as exposed as the corporation when it comes to employment laws, etc. Good staffing partners will educate themselves on their clients, their industries and why people would want to work there. Expertise is built over time. My company started as a light industrial and administrative service firm. Over almost 40 years, we have built expertise in a number of other areas.

There are TPR’s out there that are willing to ‘skim the cream from the top’. But there are organizations (such as mine) that strive to learn all we can about our clients so we are effective and they realise a solid ROI on their investment with us. As a result of these actions, we still have a solid relationships with our first clients when our business opened in 1968.

Holy Hogwash Batman!

If that’s the case … why is it companies continue to call our office every week?

The truth is while the very large Fortune 500 do have the financial and technological resources to perform a superior job of candidate pipeline development (they have to — they’re business depends on it) … and subsequently need us on a more selective basis only … there is always a near endless stream of new companies and small companies that are rapidly becoming large companies that need, demand, appreciate, and are grateful for a professional, competent, recruiter’s services.

That’s the way it will always be until the big meteor in the sky collides with earth or the next ice age comes. Until then … I plan to enjoy the party.

As I glance back ten years … I take notice that some 50-60% of the companies we did business with are gone. Extinct. Poof. Vanished.

Yet I’m still here in the most stable profession in the world. Why? Because I’m not tethered to any
specific industry, company, malfeasance or economic hiccup as much (although we have our specialization) and can deliver our services to any industry we choose to introduce ourselves to.

The average life span of a company as analyzed by Forbes recently is 12.5 years.

Twelve and a half YEARS!! That’s IT!

In fact less than 10% of Fortune corporations ever make it past their fortieth anniversary!

Go back to 1900 and only two companies survive from that era today. The rest are in the dustbins of history having created wealth only for those that got in and out of the shares at the right time.

Judging from my vantage point – Companies are collapsing faster than any of the good recruiters I know! Much faster!

Why are we not prognosticating why all these companies are failing??

The true myth and illusion promulgated among America’s college students is that corporations are a ‘safe haven’ or provide ‘stability’.

Once again: Please reference ‘Holy Cow’ exclamation above.

Then these students are hit with their first ‘layoff’ and are struck like a deer in bright headlights as to what the heck just happened because they actually believed this garbage society handed them.

We as a society spend too much time instilling the benefits of ‘working for a coporation’ in our youth and not enough energy promoting the benefits of entrepreneurship and financial independence.

As a large company plateaus or begins the gradual descent into oblivion or obsolescence … which according to extensive statistics they all eventually do and many do so much earlier than later (Home Depot/Lowes sound familiar anyone?) that space is instantly filled with two or three other new companies that value what we can deliver – Valuable Talent.

- Frank G. Risalvato
Proud to have chosen a profession
where no one can ever fire or lay me off
EVER AGAIN!!!

If a corporate imperative came down mandating ‘outsourcing’ (is that a verb?) of the recruiting function of HR to TPRs, and such a practice became popular, where would one find TPR staff with the EEE (Education, Experience, Expertise) necessary to understand the vertical position on the org chart and horizontal position in the Product Cycle, as well as the day to day functions required of the candidate, to handle such recruiting?

I notice that my comments and use of terms, acronyms, etc. did not generate the type of response I have wanted to see all these years from recruiters on both sides of the aisle, namely, ‘What do you mean by that?’, ‘What does THAT mean’, ‘Explain that to me’.

I coined the term years ago (and this is going to get me in a heap of trouble) about most non-technical people in the recruiting process being ‘Pools of ignorance surrounded by dikes of arrogance’. They never ask, they never understand, and they keep recruiting by buzz words on those totally subjective, and subject to wild interpretation, job description lists and resumes.

JCA

Pretty much the same thing happened in IT recruiting.
The talk was then of HR having ‘a place at the table’ and doing a bit of corporate empire building just like procurement had done the decade before.

Thing is: I’m certain, though I have no proof, not having ready access to actual numbers, that the new HR regime is far more expensive and inefficient than prior practices.

The light speed changes in the market (all technology driven) mask the inefficiencies and costs—for the moment.

Empire building does require external conditions in flux.

The current relative stability in technology (that?s a Karen sized post on it’s own) will let the facts catch up with the practice very shortly. Don’t be surprised to read that some major corporation has decided to outsource it’s recruiting to local TPR’s as being optimally cost effective.

Bill Wager
Hunter Green
40 Exchange Place
NY, NY 10005
212-742-0990
billwager@hunter-green.com

I certainly agree that TPRs(a NEW term since I last recruited decades back) should be aware of what HR (another NEW term since I recruited…it was ‘Personnel’) thinks, so to speak.

However, let me share with you what an old Engineering Recruiter thinks about HR looking at what we think as well.

Back in the stone age, before HR was populated by individuals who could not spell ‘Engineer’, they simply disseminated a job description and then got out of everybody’s way. ‘Technical’ Managers and ‘Technical Recruiters’ communicated directly with each other and the result a ‘submittal/fit’ ratio was 2.3 to 1!

The ‘Technical Recruiter’ understood each and every milestone of the ‘Product Life Cycle’ in RD&D (front end), such as Research, Conceptual Design, R&M, QA, Test, etc. as well as in Manufacturing (back end), such as Facilities, QC, Milestone test, etc.

Also, we knew the fundamental aspects of products whether electronic, E/M, electrical, mechanical, machine, MT, S/W, F/W, etc.

Then, HR types with absolutely no knowledge, nor the desire to acquire such, were ‘inserted’ between us and the hiring manager…no communication allowed!

Results? submittal/fit ratios out of sight (One Hiring Manager complained that he received over 100 resumes for a front end Test Engineer from HR with NO FITS! HR had no concept that a front wend Test Engineer was an entirely different animal than a back end Test Engineer.

My recommendation is that your suggestions re Recruiters should be implemented, but ALSO HR should return to hiring non- exempt types from the ranks and exempt types who can and will learn, possibly from an internal (or external….maybe I’ll structure one) training program so they knew what their people did and how it affected the company’s product and/or service.

THEN, you can begin to develop an employment process that provides rapid response, low acquisition cost, low attrition rate, low submittal/fit ratio, respect, and dignity (to both Employer and Employee).

JCA

You should know me better than that by now ;-)

Would have added that Kevin had been interviewed by me in my first post and would have been more agreeable of his article, than I had be
There would have been more information about the who?s, what, when, and where
This information would have been posted on other of the groups and Forums, plastered everywhere if there was a desire to promote a show, rather than focus on the points.

What was said regarding my upcoming Show was kept to a minimum for that reason ? so as not to try to take away from the message, and to say that there are others who agreed with the context of what was stated in this article; that recruiters will need to implement change if they wanted to continue to be successful ? though the resources for change were quite different than what was presented here.

Now you have brought this up, would like to ask a question ? see, this ?show? was done to allow recruiters to gain a valuable resource from those who are considered ?leaders? in this industry. Not only the authors of ERE, but individuals who have earned their stripes.

Now, if I had Not been the Host of the show, would it have been promotion? Would it be promotional to say ?hey folks, I just found a great resource out there that has someone asking the Guru?s the questions we all want answered? Wow, I was really impressed? Would that have been promotional?

If so, then why? and when is something informational or promotional? Would love to hear insight on this topic?

As per Mr. Wheelers article, we are currently utilizing some of the ideas that he has mentioned, we may consider some of the others and we will not utilize the ideas that do not fit with our specific recruitment approach. The opinion is his, and the informed choice is ours. I appreciate him, and many others, taking the time to share information that I can selectively use to improve my recruitment methodology and improve my business. Thanks in part to them; I DO know where recruitment is headed for my firm.

What irritates me more on this topic is when all the discussion forums get basted with the blatant promotion of an event like some forthcoming rock band tour. For me it devalues the platform.

I would rather read articles that I like, dislike, agree with or disagree with and be able to comment about rather than be put off even browsing the discussion headings because it?s flooded with the blatant marketing of the same event.