But I have to agree with the logic. Either you are leading someone to believe something that is false (in this case the bogus job) or you are not. There is no grey area.

RE Erros and Omissions insurance, like most insurance, one should really read the fine print..

Most of these Insurance Companies doesn’t cover stupidity, and of course some illegal behavior.. it only covers Negligent mistakes, not intentional ‘errors’ — they do look at your pattern of behavior

ON top of that, cost of defense is often deducted deducted from your policy limits, and of course your judgment or settlement coverage.. so your defense will also be eating away from that as well.. Unless you pay more and request it to be different .. there is a premium of course for this.. and of course raises your deductible

And of course, when you have been sued once, it becomes difficult to obtain new insurance, at a good cost.. just like with any insurance..

It is really a good idea to recognize that this insurance like auto insurance, is there as an assett.. when driving, one would still want to consider wearing a safety belt, and be careful whilst driving, even though you have insurance.. well Errors and omissions should not be considered or counted on as a safety net..

‘Dumpster Diving’ was originally one of many laws to protect the rich and famous (a privacy issue), and it’s what some of us refer to as serching Monster for resumes (admittedly there are some good ones). Maybe there should be more laws for the poor and forgotten.

And for lack of due diligence, there is Errors and Ommissions insurance, or ‘Chainsaw Al coverage’, also for those who don’t want to really work a search and toss ‘mud’ against the wall, particularly when pressured by search deadlines or promises that should have not been made. Especially rookies under pressure to produce JOs.

Merry Christmas, -Jon

Sometimes an act of kindness can also be something that can endanger another person.. Say you give someone money and they use it for drugs, and they get so wired from the stuff, that they lose it and kill someone else or die from overdose.. So, could you not say, that possibly your enabling now makes you an accessory to the crime.. (okay, that was said tongue in cheek, no comments needed)

As I said before In this industry there is no need for lying, cheating or unethical business practices.. so it really baffles me as to why do some seem to think it is okay to sponsor it?

Gee, there have been many articles or posts that support things that make me go WHY? why is this necessary

IMHO that the the purchase of Fordyce Letter may be a very positive move to ERE and this community as it may bring some more interesting, acceptable, and practical recruiting tools to the table, and there will be less of this blind leading the blind ego stuff that we sometimes see here, where individuals don’t have a clue of what it really is like, because they havent or never have played in the field..

It continues shocks me that we keep making this a personal thing… dudes.. this is about the millions of people we touch everyday.. their lives, and of course the welfare of the businesses we work with.

We Can be instrumental in hurting individuals, AND companies.. it isn’t just about us.. It isn’t about that ONE placement! it is about the person who is being placed and the company we represent who depends on our knowledge and experience..

Karen
Happy thanksgiving,,

(Since its the Holidays already) Here, it’s against the law to ‘dumpster dive’ even if you are homeless and hungry. Are the lawmakers or police (if they elect to enforce it) unethical? Or if you give them or a certain kid of yours $5 if you know for sure it will go to booze or drugs unethical? Is being an enabler unethical?

Resume writers can often be caught up in ‘white lies’ or ommissions, and I don’t mind digging a bit – disclosing any inpropriety (usually the hiring authority could care less, providing the skills are there, as long as its disclosed and not discovered later) -as often there is a ‘diamond in the rough’.

Happy Thanksgiving and Merry Christmas to all (now that Wal-Mart has reincluded it in the ads).
‘Nothing but Good Things’. And do a random act of ethical kindness, considering all the possibilities (in resumes). -Jon

Simply put, anything that is somewhat shady, somewhat underhanded, somewhat lying or somewhat deceptive is wrong and unethical. Period.

Hard working people who can grasp our business will be successful. Anyone who is successful in our business ( I am not talking about those who make lots of money when business is good and flounder and quit after the industry hits hard times. I am talking about those that have experienced the good and bad times over several years and have longevity) will tell you there is no ‘easy way’ to build their practice.

Especially for third party recuiters, the worst way to start a relationship is with a lie. Any client worth dealing with and building a relationship with would mostlikely find this behavior unacceptable.

Winning a client’s business is tough enough as it is. Professional, ethical folks in our business have to take additional time and energy not just to gauge our service against our ethical and professional competitors, but also against those that are unprofessional and sleazy.

Sharing ideas and questioning practices on an ethical basis is a good thing. But to me, a bogus resume, or misrepresentation in any way is an ideal example of a practice not to do.

Thanks for reading my comments. I hope most of my TPRs will agree.

Larry Baglio

A recent best selling author said that ‘economics describes the world we have. morality describes the world we wish we could have.’

I am of the opinion that things pertaining to spiritual practice are the realm of religion. One can codify laws to ensure proper ethical treatment of people and our sitchamatations. But one is hard pressed to codify the ‘Spirit’ of the law or any other code for that matter.

And here is where reductionists, throughout the ages, worked so hard to create equations that could predict performance based on inputs.

It never has worked. It never will work. And that is because Human Beings are more than just our Noggins; and, I say, Hallelujah to that!

The realm of the affective is a matter of feeling and intutiveness. And when I say ‘feeling’ I don’t mean to invoke the ‘WO WO’ singers of Barry Manilow fame. Nor do I wish to invoke the reams of Hallmark Cards that encapsulate our memorized emotions (This is how I am supposed to ‘feel’ when my dog dies kind of thing.)

I am speaking of the realm of the human spirit which binds us together. The jelly that makes culture among human beasts possible in the first place. The wordless realm that underwrites religious practice.

Sometimes religion is all people have to explain what overintellectualized ‘meta-studies’ don’t really explain, even if they do succeed in boring us so thoroughly that they make the issue go away into the realm of the courduroy jacket crowd.

Religious practice can lead one into a ditch just as surely as over reliance on socialism has led to the Camps.

The question regarding discussions of ethics becomes one of how has each one of us prepared ourselves to walk this Road in a way that serves those who rely upon us to teach and reach.

How much of that do we do in our work? And if it is too little, how would we know?

Hasta la Vista!

Are you serious? Would you say?

I?m not convinced that stealing from someone is theft.
I?m not convinced that driving too fast is speeding.
I?m not convinced that punching someone is violent.

Maybe you can share with us your definition of the word bogus.

Time to move on I think.

So thanks for the professional reply.

Now, you stated that you did not know how a bogus resume is lying.. well if something isn?t the truth, or honest, what else would you call it? As a recruiter one is well aware of the value of time; our job is all about timing – Getting the Right candidate at the right time. If someone wastes that time, through misrepresentation, that is cheating me of something that is of value to me.. Not to mention the irritation I will feel. Granted, it may seem harmless to You.. but, to someone else it may not be.. and obviously there are many who have expressed their dismay at this tactic

I do have a personal question to you about this Todd, this is directed to you ? WHY do you find it necessary to do this? Do you not know any other way to attract clients? Are you having difficulty in getting repeat business?

I don?t understand the necessity to have to misrepresent oneself to gain business or even find candidates? and is it really justifiable, considering it is unnecessary?
There are many of us with wide range of experience ? from 50+ years ? 6 mths, who are successful w/o ever having finding it necessary to perform any of the questionable tactics we sometimes see mentioned on these Public Forums. The one where our clients and Candidates go ? gee.. and they wonder why we think recruiters really Suck!

To your final statement ? No I didn?t pose that question to you in particular re the right to defend ethics.. and my response is not to you in Particular either.. There is a problem here, when individuals are called gunslingers, ethics queens, Naysayers.. because they are proponents of ethics.. well, the negativity that comes from it, seems to be directed to try to squash what they are saying.

This is indeed an important subject for our industry.. there are many who have expressed that they are not interested in it.. Great suggestion would be then don?t read it ? but for many of us, there are many who feel that something needs to be done before the government decides to do it for us.

I also do agree that there must be a balance, thus the voices who are Not totally for Ethics, or believe that they are personal, must also be heard loud and clear. If we didn?t have the pros and cons, then like anything in life there would be absolutism ? and even I would not like that.. even if it may appear that way at times?

Hopefully one day from these conversations will come strong suggestions and positive solutions. That is my hope..

I know the ends don’t justify the means. What actually happens is this. Recruiter A sees resume, and recruiter A e-mails what he/she thinks is a good looking candidate (there is no phone number, only e-mail). E-mail arrives in my inbox, I make decisions and determinations based upon its arrival. Mean time, recruiter A has parsed said resume in to ATS, logged avtivity, and moved on. (2 minutes tops)
I take the e-mail and determine if I should investigate and contact the hiring manager via cold-call or not. I also make a decision based up the e-mail and any others like it, about whether or not to pursure this business discipline more thoroughly.

You: So, my question to you, is another why? why do I Not have the Right to defend ethics and the reputation of my industry w/o being Labeled?

Me: You certainly have that right. I’m not sure why you posed this question to me, actually. Did I mention something in my e-mail that suggests that you do not have that right?

Todd, see, there is a lot of argument about personal ethics vs general ethics and business..

Well you see Todd, we Gun Slingers get all frazzled about the Lack of ethics in this industry due to the Problems that Come from it.. and the people that it harms.

If it was just a problem that affected the individuals who implemented questionable business tools, then it would be that personal, their business. Gosh, we wouldn’t have to worry about that.. more power to you

BUT – as it stands, Bad ethics hurts more than YOU! it hurts everyone involved, including ME — MY industry, My reputation, and MY industry… and everyone involved in it..

My biggest problem with it is the WHY? – why does ANYONE need to implement Recruiting Tools that would involve Lying? Not being Honest? Not being Upfront? That may be considered unethical, not just by Personal Standards, but based upon Conformed Western Business Values

It doesn’t make recruiting any easier – it doesn’t make getting clients any better – There is NO need..

When I hear people justify it, I wonder WHY? Why do you think it is Necessary to lie? Why do you think it is the Foundation for Recruiters? Why do you think that it is an acceptable or EVEN a necessary tool.. When in reality it Isn’t

So, my question to you, is another why? why do I Not have the Right to defend ethics and the reputation of my industry w/o being Labeled?

Why should I not have the Right to Say, Hey folks there is a BETTER way – and object to Tactics that can ultimately cause harm to another individual?

Why is caring for Values and Citizenship such a Negative thing?

Lastly, I am human, and I can guarantee that I am not perfect. I can promise that every day I will make every attempt to question myself and take a personal inventory to make sure that I don’t harm another person or company intentionally. My reputation is all I have, but mostly I like to sleep well at night.. and my conscience is my guide.

But, even with all that, I am sure that there are many mistakes I will make.. but at least I will try to do my best every day.. and make ammends when necessary. It is all I can do!

I do hope that these labels will stop eventually, as I said earlier there seems to be more finger wagging coming from the ‘naysayers’ of the Anti Ethics than from the individuals who are Pro..

My personal opinion..
Karen

Brian.
In the spirit of full disclosure, please search the discussions with key words: ‘Gun Slingers’ and you will get a full understanding of my motives.

Eamonn.
Thank you for joining the discussion. I appreciate your input! While me may be at loggerheads on some matters, therein lies the spirit of a healthy ethical debate.

Have a good weekend, all.

(Go Buckeyes! Go Colts!!!)

When someone behaves unethically the fallout is not personal, it doesn’t only affect you or your business.. there is always a third party who will be injured by the unethical behavior

Yesterday I met an attorney at the airport; His company recently interviewed an attorney through a recruiter. The recruiter had suggested to the candidate that they omit a particular job that they had only been at for 3 mths from the resume.

The Firm found out through the investigation about the ‘ommission’ – The firm later reported this Candidate to the bar association. There was a Professional Discord in omission that was considered dishonest, fraudulent or mis- representation. The company could have had a reliance on that false statement, hired the individual, and damages could later result from that non disclosure….

Two wrongs don’t make a right.. just because someone does something unethical, doesn’t make it okay, does it?

Anyways, I digress.. When Anyone lies, cheats, steals, there is another person who is being harmed; or another person who is relying on that information to be honest or accurate. We could also be taking something of value from that individual.. Even time is valuable.

Unethical behavior isn’t just harming you on a personal level.. it puts a bad light on this whole industry.. On all of us.

Lastly — It is NEVER been necessary to LIE or ruse to do this job. There is no justification to do it — Really *- been doing this job for well over a Decade and I have NEVER had to make a ruse call to gain names.

I know that I am not special, or unique, there are many of us who have found that this job can easily be done w/o having to ‘bend’ rules to get something done..

The offer still holds true.. if you want to know how to make calls w/o having to ruse call, give me a call, I am willing to share..

karen Mattonen
858-668-3111

Ethics is a personal issue and no amount of discussion on this board will make people believe that their ethics / morals are other than what they are.

While I belive in debate and discussion, the ‘ethical debate’ comes down to your own personal standards… Todd seees nothing wrong with posting fake resumes and misrepresnting who he is blatantly where as I do.

Which of us is right and which is wrong?… well, based on your own personal standards it could be either. ( although I personaly believe I’m right:))

So, while I appreciate all the discussion, its gotten a little out of control.

Just my own, personal opinion, not to say its right or wrong but its mine…

Eamonn

There is not enough discussion about ethics, but as it pertains to our business; perhaps not the historical/philosphical diatribes. Here are a few:
-Got a $205k check for a $20.5k fee – called & returned it in person, leaving at 5:30 AM for the 140 mile roundtrip to avoid traffic.
–Sent a check for time & car expense if its our fault sending the candidate out to the wrong address or on the wrong day.
—An AE here, introducing another AE’s candidate, who was much better than hers even though they were at the offer stage (yes, they did indeed hire the better one & she gave up some of her fee).

We believe that, overall, we will end up booking more business.

Maybe not as interesting, but, maybe a few others might add to this list. – Jon

It is not based on religion but simple pure self interest. This is a small world with instantaneous communication systems. If you violate the ‘golden rule’ it will come back to haunt you. The old ‘what goes around comes around’ Principle.

If there are so many ethically challenged recruiters in the industry perhaps a view of their own long term self interest and in the end the interest of their employer will provide a guiding principle.
Rather than the short term view of modern society of ‘Instant Gratification’.

Let’s end this disussion and go back to the real function of a recruiter. Put people to WORK.