I think John his 100% on target with this one. Any recruiter that thinks building relationships within the groups of people they target to recruit is important should agree too.

All we’re talking about here is meeting up with other adults in a casual setting and looking for opportunities to do business. It’s no different than being on a golf course or at a convention.

Unless you?re getting people drunk and having them sign offer letters at the bar, I don’t see any ethical problem with this strategy.

Now my example related to the IT sector pre Y2K and using bars/pubs in the city of London where we knew IT consultants, contractors, etc hung out. We did our research, indentified the target group, the channel to to the audience and went to communicate with them. We also used other methods, we put billboards in rest room, we sponsored beer mats, we set up dart and pool nights and yes we went in with money and business cards to recruit.

Where we successful, you bet, with most mediums you wait for them to come to you. Why wait go to them.

AA sorry way to PC for me and most Europeans, no we don’t have anything like to long lunches we used to but yes afterwork we meet and socilaise. It’s interesting that as a Brit who travels regually in the US it is something that Americans who have worked in Europe, particually the UK miss when they go back home.

Agree with everything in Johns piece.

In the Uk we set up walk-in’s in towns and cities, join us for breakfast or a lunch or afterwork for a wine and career chat. These are used for either hard to fill positions where a large number of the target audience are in a specfic area. Rule use a bar or pub they know, ‘home turf comfort zone’, or with volume recruitment ie a store opening.

BUT going into a ‘zone’ and being with you audience and talking and handing out business cards just do it.

Keith Robinson

Mind you joking apart not such a stupid idea, I have found candidates many a time in a bar, as soon as they find out you are in recruitment I get their life story then I feel obliged to help them on Monday.

Good article. One of those that makes you think, ‘Hey, yeah, this is what we do, and it’s fun, and it’s outside the box, and it’s not 9 to 5, and someone is going to appreciate that I found them here, and later they got a great job because of my effort.’

By the way, the ones that aren’t at the bar, are getting their hair highlighted or their monthly pedicure next door. And guess who’s sitting in the beauty shop chair next to them? Me. The hardest part is pulling my business card out of my wallet with wet nails; I consider it a blessing.

So I guess I have to get on my knees and acknowledge that publicly.

That being said.. Colin, in response to your post.. How I recruit and do it well is that I have learnt how to give good phone. How to make very few calls a day but get results With each and every call. (I am a lazy person, and I like to make my job as easy as possible)

I still stand by the phone is the best and Quickest, more effective method of recruiting.

Let’s use this bar analogy okay – You are in a bar with hundreds of people, well would it not be like pulling a needle out of a haystack to find that candidate you need. Sure if you are just looking for names and numbers to compile.. well that may be a good tool, but then one can consider the time spent here could have been vested more effectively on the say – Phone?

Social networking once in a while, yeah, this could possibly reap some rewards..

Bill, you bring to mind the times I’ve been out and felt like telling someone ‘I understand what you do, but I’m just trying to enjoy the company of my friends. Can you please go away?’. I find the mimes take this feedback rather well ; )

There was a heavy focus on bars in this article, yes, I have a problem with that. Obviously. And of course For obvious reasons..

But as you stated Colin, if you go beyond that and look at the whole picture, then you are right.. I guess there are some valid points to this article.

Okay, I acknowledge there is a bigger picture to this, and I guess I had my blinders on. Could not see beyond the ‘bars’

There, I said it, out in the open. Sometimes this stubborn gal needs to get off her own soap box from time to time.

Karen.

Another venue for recruiting, definitely. But like many of the new and innovative recruiting concepts, I don’t think it’s either.

At the risk of sounding like Al Gore (I did not invent the Internet, BTW), I’ll give a couple of examples. One is that I was networking to find candidates back in 1982. It just wasn’t called networking back then. I don’t think I invented networking, nor was networking new when it became a buzzword. I also have been recruiting at social events since ‘82; bars, hiking clubs, parties, etc. It’s what I do for a living, and it’s a rare conversation that doesn’t include that basic interogative.

The reality is that a good recruiter is always recruiting, no matter where they are. How many of us dread the old cliche of being seated next to an insurance salesman on a flight? That fear is nearly as old as commercial airlines, yet the principle is exactly the same.

I’ve also had the reverse experience; salespeople targeting me while I was out having a drink. And recruiting is nothing if not sales: you are selling yourself, your company (or your client’s) and the benefits of the position.

Bill Barnes
w.r.barnes@gmail.com

For Dr. John’s part, he seems to enjoy waving a red cape around. Personally, I think the point about ‘attractive members of the opposite sex’ was gratuitous. I think anyone old enough to order a drink in a bar doesn’t really need to be told about that sort of thing.

The problem with the cape-waving is that it distracts us from the substance, which is often worthwhile.

Sullivan’s not suggesting to lie or cheat or steal at all here. He is suggesting that people be aggressive and to go to a place where most recruiters likely haven’t thought to go.

As for the fact that alcohol’s involved- I’ve never been to a trade show that didn’t have at least one cocktail hour, and the montly meetings of many local professional/trade associations are basically happy hours. Last I checked, companies weren’t forbidding staff from attending these events, to which all of the same concerns would apply. So I think that’s a red herring.

Karen: You clearly have some strongly-held beliefs that your approach to recruiting is not only ‘cleaner’ but more successful in the long haul and that’s great. Why don’t you start writing some articles here, or start your own blog to develop your concepts in more detail? Right, wrong, or indifferent, Dr. John hasn’t just said ‘corporate recruiters need to get with it,’ he’s written tens of thousands of words saying ‘here’s how to do it.’ You catch a lot more flies with honey than vinegar.

They are also liable for the behavior if the employee get’s harmed or harms another especially if they are representing that said company ‘off the clock’ and off site

So let’s take this bar scene – Recruiter drinks a few cocktails to be social – recruits a few people, leaves and has an accident?

What about if the Said Recruiter get’s hit by a drunk driver..

This was all happened because the Recruiter was Just doing his job?

Come on now – where does responsibility start and end when writing articles.

Did the author Really think this one Through? This isn’t just about Ethics, this has legal issues all around it.

Great Sullivan wants to stir up the pot, but if he doesn’t give pros and cons, well other responsible individuals will have to present them to others who may not think of the outcome.

My 2 Cents!

What I find even more interesting is what happens here each time John Sullivan writes an article. He intentionally throws out some controversial (though dated, in this case) ideas, knowing full-well that people will pounce with indignation. The respondents write off everything he says as ‘bad for the industry’, he gets to dismiss them for being squeamish/not aggressive enough. Everyone gets to feel right. All get a platform and a nemesis to rail against. Am I the only one that is a little bit fascinated by the dynamic?

Unfortunately, I think some people may get scared off the conversation by some of the comments they see here because they don’t want to be attacked by either side (’squeamish!’…’unethical!’…’I know you are but what am I?’) and that is really too bad for the rest of us.

But let’s get me started. I find it unethical as heck to write articles that one ‘might’ consider trying .. Master.. isn’t that what you said MIGHT try it?
does that mean that there hasn’t been any research involved with this? Was it just the observation of watching one Predatory Recruiting tactics, the same that almost got an individual kicked out of the Bar by security? They left before it happened. (overheard the discussion the manager was having with Security when I was eating Dinner in the Bar with my husband)

I find it unethical that the Author doesn’t mention or discuss the Pro’s and Con’s when he is ’stirring up the pot’ – Doesn’t mention how Some of these tactics they write of have been instrumental in individuals being Fired from their Jobs..

I also find it interesting that this post came on the Heels of another interesting Recruiting Comic Strip based upon recruiters in a Bar. That Post was done on Friday on a good Friend’s Blog.
That was done Tongue in Cheek.. Was this as well? or is that where we got our research?

Nah, I never once had mentioned Ethics, but now that it is Out – EVERY business, EVERY industry brings a value to the economy, and many that are involved with the Welfare of the Public must have ethics revolving around it.

The Recruiting industry Even More So. Why? Because we deal with Peoples Lives, and that of their families; we are privy to information that can rock Stock Markets or harm companies. We are privy to Private and VERY confidential information. Yet this industry has no Barrier to entry in Many states. YET!!!!! Anyone and I mean Anyone Can call themselves a recruiter. Many will leave when times get tough, and the REAL Recruiters will be left to Clean up the mess that many had created.

Gee, I am kinda sick and tired of Cleaning up messes. I am sick of hearing the Negative stories from Candidates, clients and other Recruiters about the unethical behavior they suffered from unethical Recruiters.

It is important to Note that if Ethics are Not self Created within an industry, it will be created for them, by individuals who don?t even know our industry. Just take a Good look at SOX for all the Misbelievers! Many thought that would NEVER happen either!

Nah, I don?t think this article had major issues based upon ethics, not too much; Nah, the legal issues were More a focus for me.. This thing had legal impropriety written all over it.
Let?s base all employment on ROI.. Gee, I can see certain Religions, Associations having a field day with this one. Not a couple thousand in ROI and lawsuits, let?s try a couple million.
ROI, we will tell the stockbrokers when we are in a massive lawsuit, we were thinking about our ROI ? is that what Abercrombie and Finch told their stockbrokers after their 175 Million Dollar Lawsuit?

This is a tactic which I have employed with a great degree of success for many years in my pursuit of sales talent for the pharmaceutical industry, and again I applaud you for forcing recruiters to think.

This is not a tactic in my opinion for overtime, this is not a tactic to be used instead of ‘picking up the phone’ this is another tool to be utilized when and where appropriate, and yes it can be done in an ethical manner.

What many folks on this board tend to lose sight of is if this tactic is used in conjunction to the tried and true methods as well as some outside the box tactics, and again approached in a professional and ethical way, I applaud those of you out there who are confident enough in your clients and employers to be comfortable enough to recruit for them in any environment.

An old mentor often preached ‘Good recruiters are always working’, why not expand our networking circle and potentially find a few candidates along the way. Cheers!

Seriously, it really bugs me when there are individuals giving such great advice, but haven’t been in the recruiting trenches in ages.

ROI – Another Word I grow weary of – Straight up, is it really worth the ROI when your company is sued by someone whose boss had a great idea – John, we want you to recruit in the local bar’ and John’s religion or Personal Beliefs prohibit him from going to the local bar?

Is it worth your ROI when John turn in overtime slips but the company won’t acknowledge his time spent recruiting in the local bar, and he sues for said overtime plus more….

Look, this job isn’t just as easy as walking in a bar or doing as one pleases just because you can –

Come on people it is time to wake up and know your industry, not to mention let’s get our credibility.

Employment lawsuits make up the largest number lawsuits filed in Courts..(as of 2003) –
According to USA today 450 employment Related Lawsuits are filed Every DAY. 2000% increase since 1974 – and lawsuits filed doubled since 1992, average case load for eeoc investigators tripled since 1992

when you consider there are 25 federal and state laws and hundreds of regulations that apply to workplace relationships
And according to SHRM 3 out of 5 Employers are sued by former employees every year

Well one could only say it may be a priority for companies to create a more Employee friendly environment. Yes, that is what is Worth YOUR ROI

Oh and please – as YOU once said to me – there is a difference in being Inclusive versus exclusive – in response to the poor analogy regarding recruiting on college campuses

Rhetoric, Rhetoric, Rhetoric – so amazing and so convenient when it suits some.

Networking is one thing, but as Heather said it so well, cheezy, unprofessional recruiting will get you just that, cheezy unprofessional outcomes. (not to mention candidates)

Burnett, I also Noticed something you said, ‘I would probably use this tool’ – well considering that You WORK for Sullivan, and he is such a master, how come you haven’t yet.. and why only the probably?

Let’s just get back to the basics – tried and True – PICK UP THE PHONE – IT WORKS!!!!! REALLY IT DOES

Don’t blame the people responding for presuming that yet again Dr Sullivan preaches unethical behaviour, whatever the method.

Whilst I admire your loyalty, you sum it up by saying ‘it’s time to ADMIT that nearly any practice can be carried out in a manner consistent with ones own ethics and values.’

And there you have it at last. Ethics is a personal thing and clearly some people have less than others. It’s not so much the action, and this idea of recruiting is anything but new, it’s the intent and the intent is clear again and again.

’stealing talent’
‘public places to raid’
‘everyone knows that salespeople, pickpockets’
‘war for talent’
‘fight like a warrior’
‘No one was expecting a raid’
‘recruiter will be lurking’
‘act like a true warrior’

I don’t think the article only said ’singling someone out in a bar to talk to based on their age or general appearance.’

What it also said was:

?If you’re attractive, start by trying to build a conversation with a member of the opposite sex that glances at you more than once.’

It also went on to say:

‘Interns and young people are also often welcoming and helpful, because no one has told them not to be.?

You’re right about one thing. These articles certainly make you think but maybe not in the way you hope. It is time as you say to start thinking of recruiting like a business but perhaps the lack of personal ethics should not be part of the equation. It just isn’t necessary.

Forget about ethics, that is just a lame excuse. Headhunters are to a company what martyrs are to a country. Martyrs take ages, and loads of personal sacrifices to rewrite a nation’s history or improve the living conditions of masses. Example: Mr.Mandela had to spend 26 years in jail before aparthied was actually abolished.

However, a headhunter does much more. He or she not only builds a company but indirectly contributes to the economic wealth of a nation in a very short span of time. So lets not debate on recruiting ethics, and morality. Headhunters are in the business of building companies, and need to do whatever it takes to build it.

I am a Silicon Valley recruiter born and bread. I count among my friends a number of high ranking executives in corporations whose names everyone would recognize. If you think your CEO would consider the idea of occasionally spending time in enemy territory networking with the employees of a competitor at a local pub or restaurant near their offices an insidious waste of time, then I would hazard to guess you really don’t know your executives, as most would call it brilliant.

Who cares if you convert anyone you meet in the bar or restaurant, the real benefit is that you send a message and expand your network.

As for singling someone out in a bar to talk to based on their age or general appearance being an arrest worthy offense to the law, get real. If that were the case nearly everyone would be arrest worthy at some point in their lives. Recruiters discriminate daily by attending college recruiting fairs at all black colleges or all female colleges. I don’t often see them being led away in handcuffs.

The other asinine comment that was made had to do with overtime. Again, I challenge you to get real. Cost containment is an HR centric focus, real executives care more about return. If you spend $1,500 in overtime to fill a role that costs $5,000 each day it remains vacant, you did your company a service, one yielding a fairly high ROI.

It’s time to stop hiding behind ethics as an excuse. It’s time to start thinking of recruiting like a business. It’s time to ADMIT that nearly any practice can be carried out in a manner consistent with ones own ethics and values.

Of the posts made so far, the only business oriented post that I somewhat find value in is Heather’s, who questions the cycle time of this recruiting approach. In response to that, I argue that every recruiter?s tool box should be filled with short, medium, and long term candidate generation tools, and that network build is an age old practice. I would also argue that for organizations expanding globally, sometimes the local pub in a Northern Italian city is the best channel to meet the most people in the shortest period of time.

All recruiting tools have a scope of reasonable applicability, including this one. If I were recruiting high volume, low skill labor, I probably would use this tool. If I were however recruiting low volume, high value positions with very narrow talent pools I might.

And with that, I wish you all the best in your recruiting endeavors, wherever they may take you.

< <'If you're attractive (just like in spy movies, this really can help), start by trying to build a conversation with a member of the opposite sex that glances at you more than once. Consider individuals who are of a similar age, ethnicity, dress, or other noticeable feature. Interns and young people are also often welcoming and helpful, because no one has told them not to be'>>….I’m not finding this to be very professional, even barring the ethical aspects. And if one is not that attractive? What’s the game plan then?

< <'Recruiting there is a lot more fun. Let's face it, getting managers and even recruiters to go out in the field and recruit is all too often a difficult task. But when you tell them that they can drink and eat while recruiting on the company's dime, you get a totally different answer'>>…Not sure that these are the employees that I want on my team. I prefer hardworking individuals whom I do not have to bribe with free alcohol, don’t you? I can bet, however, that you will be flooded with applications for Recruiting Positions once the word gets out!

Really, I am offended by the idea that recruiters are such sharks that they have to hang out in bars to pick up candidates. I think we recruiters need to continue our level of professionalism and avoid coming across as incompetent sales-sharks.