Many years receiving and assessing expatriates applications have indicated me that there is no way that anyone could be 100% sure about the ‘suitability’ of anyone to any job. This comment is also valid for any resume, whether it comes from an expatriate or not.

The best answer to this will always be a personal interview, where your recruiting skills will be challenged.

However, I understand that to invite an expatriate to come to an interview from overseas, is an expensive proposition. I would recommend to conduct a phone interview first.

I am a fan of Emotional Intelligence. You could ask the candidate(s) to respond to a very simple EI survey on line. It doesn’t cost too much and it is an excellent indicator of potential suitability.You can enter http://www.talentsmart.com for more information about this.

Other alterntive is to conduct an online Job-Fit and Candidate-Fit survey. You can enter http://www.swtinstitute.com for more information about Job-Fit. I think that each report costs $ 35.

These online surveys cannot serve as absolute predictors of suitability, but indeed will well complement any other judgement that you, as a good recruiter, will gather during the interview process, wheter is conducted by phone or personally.

In the end… you will only know the suitability of any candidate between 3 to 6 months of hiring.

But your recruiting success record will improve if you consider Emotional Intelligence approach when evaluating candidates.

Hope this helps.

A question, you advertise for a job and an expatriate applies for it. He / She may be Great, but how do you find out about his/her suitability. A lot of times, on paper someone might not look good, but reality would be different. I might be missing the next Jack Welch and I dont want to do that.
I would like a low cost (money, time etc) way to identify the stars. Any thoughts?

I understand entirely the argument for the self made person who may not have had the opportunity to get a college education, but I wouldn’t agree that this is the most competitive position from which to launch a career in 21st century corporate life.

Not only does a formal education help build a bridge into a career early on, it also informs and shapes a person’s life as he or she moves through the ever-changing corporate ranks — or decides not to move through them. In my opinion, a liberal arts education not directed at any specific trade can be surprisingly valuable. How many lawyers run pet stores? It happens.

Research skills, writing skills, strategy, deduction, comparison — each of these are refined as you complete a formal education. You’re going to have a tough time arguing these away as foundations for success in just about anything you might choose to do, including being the best recruiter that you can.

yes indeed well said… Kimberly – you mentioned one should earn one’s stripes — what do you think Years of experience is? Isn’t that earning it the road More Travelled, versus the world Less — Less considering that Less people have degrees versus More…. EVEN in today’s 21 Society

Mark Re your comments –
Probably the only good thing to come out of the new OFCCP regulations is that employers must now break down job descriptions by minimum skill requirements. A degree can no longer be a determining factor in whether or not someone is qualified for a job unless that employer can PROVE that a degree has a specific bearing on ones ability to do the work.

Well the EEOC HAS indeed done that – yes it does trickle over to the OFCCP – Please see my previous posts – in fact here is the info from the Manual itself
http://www.eeoc.gov/policy/docs/race-color.html
SECTION 15: RACE & COLOR DISCRIMINATION – VI, Chapter B, Hiring and Promotion – Education Requirements -

Educational requirements obviously may be important for certain jobs. For example, graduation from medical school is required to practice medicine. However, employers often impose educational requirements out of their own sense of desirable qualifications. Such requirements may run afoul of Title VII if they have a disparate impact and exceed what is needed to perform the job. As the Supreme Court stated in one of its earliest interpretations of Title VII: ?History is filled with examples of men and women who rendered highly effective performance without the conventional badges of accomplishment in terms of certificates, diplomas, or degrees. Diplomas and tests are useful servants, but Congress has mandated the commonsense proposition that they are not to become masters of reality.?(89)

One of the founding premises of the United States is that people should be able to excel based on their desire and work ethic, not their background or social standing.

Here you claim the uneducated feel ‘entitled’ to the same job respect as those with a degree.

Besides the fact that this is one of the most arrogant statements I have every heard in my life, it is also one of the biggest lies.

In my 25+ years experience as an executive in the computer industry and as a recruiter, I have NEVER met a self made man or woman that had any feelings of entitlement about anything.

On the other hand, I meet college grads every day that somehow feel that having a degree grants them a magic pass to a title, benefits and and big salary without ever having put forth any effort. There’s an old joke in recruiting that goes like this:

At the end of a job interview, the recruiter asked the colleg grad what kind of salary he was looking for. ‘In the neighborhood of $140,000 a year, depending on the benefits package,’ he said.

‘Well, what would you say to a package of 5-weeks vacation, 14 paid holidays, full medical and dental, company matching retirement fund to 50% of salary, and a company car…say, a red Corvette?’

‘Wow! Are you kidding?’ responded the grad.

‘Yeah, but you started it.’

By achieving a degree, you haven’t earned anything in the eyes of the business world. What the degree tells us is that you have potential and some rudimentary skills, but we all have made college hires that interviewed well, passed every prescreening evaluation with flying colors, then performed miserably at the job.

The person without the degree has already proved his worth, with a documented track record of performance. To disqualify a non-degreed person from a position in favor of someone with less experience because they have a degree is discrimination and prejudice in its worst form.

Probably the only good thing to come out of the new OFCCP regulations is that employers must now break down job descriptions by minimum skill requirements. A degree can no longer be a determining factor in whether or not someone is qualified for a job unless that employer can PROVE that a degree has a specific bearing on ones ability to do the work.

The next 10 years will prove difficult enough to find enough quality people to fill our jobs without adding another layer of discrimination as a means of segregating out qualified candidates.

It is about time we started treating people with respect based on who they are and what they can do, not based on their pedigree.

Thank you for providing all of your points of view, but I think that there are vast assumptions being made about my opinions and perspectives. As Dr. Williams stated, a number of people weighed in to trash my article and ‘I hope the majority of people do not take these comments too seriously. These arguments may sound attractive, but are all seriously wrong-headed ? and some are even dangerous.’ It seems that the comments made are overlooking the fundamental points that myself and Dr. Williams are making. Read them again. Understand them.

As far Eamonn’s points about a European education, the reason why a high school education is highly valued is because it is a much more rigorous curriculum than it is in the U.S. I spent a year studying in France and spent 7 years attending an international school in S.F. You are preaching to the choir, but thank you for enlightening others as to the difference between the U.S. and Europe regarding education. A graduate degree from a U.S. institution is considered to be very valuable in Europe. Moreover, in Europe, everyone has a shot at a college education because the application process is not based on economics or legacies, but merit.

I would just like to see those who have paid their dues be rewarded. I have not seen enough of this in the recruiting profession. I do respect self-made individuals, and I know a lot of educated self-made individuals who wish others would earn an education themselves because they believe that an education is a foundation. I also know a lot of recruiters who have seen their lack of education hurt them from getting hired and getting ahead, despite their years of experience, imagination, and persistence. In my experience, the uneducated feel entitled to the same paths as the educated, yet they don’t want to pay the same dues. I am not saying, Karen, that you have to have a certain GPA from a certain school (you do know why I left a previous company for exactly that myopic practice–even though I don’t agree with that company, it works for them!). I am simply saying that we need a foundation if you are expected, as recruiters, to be in a profession where you are interacting with high caliber individuals and are expected to have a strong level of communication, analytical, and execution skills. These skills may not come from an engineering major, but it will come from the humanities classes that are generally required. I’m not talking about a certificate or an online education from a for-profit school. A Cal State, an Ivy League, and everything in between can provide the tools to be successful faster, but of course there is no guarantee since we have to consider market conditions and other factors.

Otherwise, why go to college? Don’t we go to help us be professionally successful, not just for personal fulfillment or to learn a trade? Motivation and persistence are separate issues–when a company looks at a resume, they can’t always measure your motivation and imagination because those are subjective issues, but they can judge you based on what you have accomplished both educationally and professionally–the latter will get you through the door, and the subjective issues may or may not keep you in the room. Shouldn’t we know this as staffing professionals? I still believe that we need a bar in recruiting, just like there are bars in many other professions.

I think you mean ‘blinders’ not ‘blinkers,’ but I really shouldn’t nitpick. I understand entirely the argument for the self made person who may not have had the opportunity to get a college education, but I wouldn’t agree that this is a competitive position to find oneself in 21st century corporate life.

Not only does a formal education help build a bridge into a career early on, it also informs and shapes a person’s life as they move through the corporate ranks — or decide not to move through them. In my opinion, a liberal arts education not directed at any specific trade can be surprisingly valuable. How many lawyers run pet stores? It happens.

Research skills, writing skills, strategy, deduction, comparison — each of these are refined as you complete a formal education. You’re going to have a tough time arguing these away as foundations for success in just about anything you might choose to do, including being a recruiter.

Where one went to school would fall under knowledge and yes, it does provide us with some information of the candidate. But whether a candidate has identified his/her talents, honed them with knowledge and augmented them with skills, and further, whether the strengths are applicable for a particular position are a whole seperate assessment independent of what school s/he graduated from.

Additionally, it has been my experience to assess the level of motivation and passion for candidates graduating from elite universities as they may have either a sense of entitlement and/or been beneficiaries due to one connection or another to attend an elite institution.

To say that its only the non degreed folks on ERE that are in disagreance with you is somewhat bewildering. To say that they lack an education because they have no 4 year degree is even more bewildering.

A University degree (which is much less common in Europe as opposed to the USA) is almost treated like a high school diploma here. If you dont have one you are seen as second class citizen, but to become a more senior levelled exec in a corp world you need an advanced degree or even a PHD.

In Europe a degree is usualy required to work in a field relative to which the degree was earned. (Although that may have changed somewhat now).

It makes me chuckle also that we (recruiters) continuously compare ourselves to doctors, lawyers and dentists… If this is the case I’d be interested in where you earned your degree in recruiting? When you passed your state and federal recruiting exam for a licence and how often you have to renew it?

Commitment and analytical thinking? Have you actualy interviewed any recent college grads? While many are certainly dedicted, intelligent and commited, there are an equal number that are not any of those and would likely have pulled out of school had someone not made them stay there and paid their way.

While I did support myself through school there are many who did not.I personaly have as much respect for someone who made their way in the world succesfully without a formal education (as did my father), as those who do. There are winners and losers and the the deciding factor should not be a diploma that states ‘is hereby conferred upon the degree’

Its time to take off the blinkers, if you widen your view a little you may find you have missed out on some great folks who ‘hold onto their mensa membership’.

And yes I do hold a Bsc., but its not in recruiting either.

I’m jumping into the middle of something, because I haven’t read the previous discussion, but I have to say that you sound as defensive as the people you’re commenting upon. It sounds as if one or more of them hit a nerve.

Personally, while I graduated with departmental honors from college and also have an unrelated master’s degree, I don’t think that prepared me in any way to be a good recruiter. In fact, most of the best recruiters that I know were far from academic stars.

My personal belief is that if you have good communication skills, good basic math skills, above average intelligence, and integrity, then you have the makings of an excellent recruiter.

Sorry to jump in on the middle of a discussion, but your characterization of those who disagreed with you was so harsh I felt compelled to throw in my two cents worth. As a technical recruiter, I would add that while a solid formal education can be very helpful in advancing one’s technical career, it’s by no means a requirement either. Some of the best software developers I know, as well as many well known leaders in technology either have no college training, or dropped out of college prior to graduating in order to enter the workforce.

The key, I think, is to consider each individual’s strengths whether they have a degree or not, rather than prejudging them based on whether they have earned a diploma.

Regards,

Tim Heard

Okay, I give, you have convinced me.. As of today, I will make sure that my clients Only hire an individual who has a 3.40 average and above, definitely graduated from an Elitist School.

We will spend that much longer looking for that perfect sales candidate with these credentials, and for goodness sakes if we can’t find one with experience we definitely will make sure that they have at least the education and forget about the individual who have the proven expert experience.. gee, they just don?t cut the mustard anymore

Seriously If companies, banks, financial institutions, thought like that then a grand majority of the Baby Boomers – more than 80 Percent of the population would not have had an opportunity to be who they are today.

Some companies would not be in existence if they were unable to get the loans because the financial officer would not have believed they were capable to make the grade because they didn’t make the grade.. Pun intended ? Think about it, Dell, Microsoft, Oracle, Gateway Yes even Google ? would these individuals have been able to gain the financial backing they needed, if everyone thought Hey you are just a dropout, ?loser? (lack of better word), why should we give you our money.

By the way, many of the people who protest about this matter do have degrees.. Including the Supreme Court? Several on this board also have degrees. One of the most interesting people I know on ERE has a PHD from one of those Elitist Schools, many are not even aware of this ? His name and business is highly recognizable, and regarded with high respect. The business he has with his partner is Highly successful. I found out only this year in a personal conversation that he held a doctorate. I have known him for some time.

I asked him why he never put this info on his profile or their webpage. He said and I loosely translate- that his business is founded by their personalities, the people they are, and the information they have gained in the process. He said that he didn?t want people to be swayed by the piece of paper. He wanted people to come to use their service because of their Product, because of them, who they are and what they bring to the table not because of a piece of paper!

Now there is a person I respect!

There are Just as many individuals who can be considered drop-outs even though they hold a degree ? I have seen many a professional degreed individual who were complete drop out and ?losers? in my books even though they held that piece of paper ? Enron Comes to mind.. I also know some great winners who dropped out of High school as well and made something of their lives ? Present Prime Minister of England comes to mind..

I found that those individuals who were the most critical to my statements within my article were those folks who are defensive because they lack an education. Instead,they hold onto their mensa membership or apparent high IQ (as if that means anything with the research that has been done on IQ tests)–this is not unusual and I am quite accustomed to it. For those who were supportive, they clearly paid their dues.

Then there were those who thought they were being clever with their various quotes. I have worked at employers who don’t care about persistence, imagination, potential, or educated Derelicts (extracted from the myriad of quotes). They just want those individuals to have the darn degree in order to be taken seriously. Of course, some of these employers are particular about where you attend school (I was even asked about my SAT scores despite being out of school for over a decade)–that’s another argument in itself.

I find it to be a glaring contradiction for those who said that they want their lawyers and doctors to have the educational backgrounds that they do (and are required), but they don’t think that an education requirement should be imposed upon the recruiting profession. Every professional career should require a foundation because it requires a level of commitment and analytical thinking that only an educational experience can provide. Otherwise, we should just be picking up garbage for a living.

I would like to add my thoughts to the ongoing discussion.

Is a degree just a piece of paper or what does it represent?

I agree with Karen but would like to add more. Degree/education is very important because it forms the basis of our depth of knowledge(in the beginning years), the way we handle situations(through out life), our view to scientific, structured approach(through out life) and more. What degree imparts us directly, can help us in our jobs is important and changes with times. But even importantly degree gives us the brain power to think beyond what we learn in school. Having said the above it does not mean that degreed folks know it all and undegreed do not. It simply makes ground for easy comparisons. I have encountered so many individuals in my personal and professional life who for lack of good education (hence degrees) were not simply logical, scientific in their decision making and also a lot of degreed people who had no clue to what they were doing. For clients if decision had to be made going the degreed way would be easier. A lot of non degreed people could be the best out there but how to weed out the rest would become a big issue.

In HR I feel we can definetely think more logically when our brain is stimulated through thought provoking ideas that usually come thorough higher education and good interactions in similarly qualified people.

Is the sole measure of success in recruiting billing?

Defineltely not. Getting a good name from clients/Candidates for doing a good, ethical work is very high priority. Also having enough work (with hopes of reward) to do is another measure of success.

If an industry does not normally require a degree does that mean the requirement of one would not improve the profession?

Not necessarily. Depends on the profession. In fact a degree imposition might make getting new qualified people SERIOUS in their jobs a hinderance. eg – We deal with computer operators for data centers and if by any chance we come across degreed guys we usually end up in problems because these guys are not happy to be operators, they want to do more but they have been working as operators for ever. Dissatisfaction becomes a big issue.

Forceful requirement of degree would create difficulties for professions where degree does not bring in any direct impact onto the job responsibilities.

What combination of skill, talent, attitude, ability and experience make someone successful? If you know the answer hurry and write the definitive book (smile)!
Is there any one particular? Depending on Job Requirements, company needs, the structure of the company, their company policies and the

Is a degree just a piece of paper or what does it represent?
I don?t think a degree is only a piece of paper, especially in the first 10+ years for many industries, but there is only so much information a degree can bring to the table.. There are things I learned in School and College that are refuted today. Especially if one considers Science, engineering, the law or even Human Resources.

A degree also does show (especially for the inexperienced, and the new entry into the business world) commitment and stamina to complete something, But, if someone has showed that same stick-to-it attitude, determination through experience, solid job history and hands on training, should that person not be entitled to have similar respect. Have they not also obtained their dues but maybe the long road more traveled?

Is the sole measure of success in recruiting billing? No

If an industry does not normally require a degree does that mean the requirement of one would not improve the profession?
Hmm, that is a really good one. I think Education in any industry is a Must.. but is a degree necessary? Can one not gain the education without the Badge of Bachelors or Masters?
There are a few Professions that mandate a degree ? and even then there are still bad doctors, PHD?s, lawyers. There are doctors who obtained that degree 20 years previously and have rarely opened a book since. That can be scary don?t you think?

Yes, I do agree a degree has some importance, especially in the beginning of a career but I find it difficult to understand the significance of degree later in life. Especially when people change; Life changes how people think, react or deal with things. Who we were 20 years ago whilst in school is not who we are today.. so to judge someone on previous accomplishments rather than to look at What they have Been Presently doing, well that seems so erroneous, don?t you think?

I have read several books that purport to list all of the attributes of the most successful men and women. I am sure you have to and if the answers were easy the authors would probably not sell as many books.

What combination of skill, talent, attitude, ability and experience make someone successful? If you know the answer hurry and write the definitive book (smile)!

As I read the article and the postings I formed several questions that might shed some light on the issue for me anyway if there are answers.

Is a degree just a piece of paper or what does it represent?

Is the sole measure of success in recruiting billing?

If an industry does not normally require a degree does that mean the requirement of one would not improve the profession?

I won’t attempt to answer any of these questions as I would truly be interested in ideas from others.

A wonderful PHD by the name of Eugene Garfield, Ph.D also shares my views.. great article http://www.garfield.library.upenn.edu/essays/v2p238y1974-76.pdf

You asked a question ?It is just as discriminatory to base a hiring decision on solely unverifiable interview data as on a legitimate degree?? — I personally find that question to be an interesting way to pull away from the context of what is being said here..
It is discriminatory to base any hiring decision on any Sole factor without looking at the full experience, and skills that the candidates have to offer.
.
Dr. Wendell, this isn?t about being right, it is about treating our employees, our candidates, Right. About doing right by the companies we work for.

Investing time, looking over qualified candidates for positions because they lack a degree tends to be somewhat illogical. companies who may turn down a person who has proven successes, just because they don?t have a sheepskin, well they are setting themselves up for failure and disaster. Not to mention the potential for lawsuits.

Recently I saw a rather large company requiring a degree for a Secretary.. Wow, a bachelors for a secretary. Wonder how long that individual will stay, what their turnover will be like.. and why in goodness sake would a secretary need a bachelors degree for. Extreme, yes, but they don?t think so.

What about companies who require a degree for their recruiters.. Hmm.. so are we saying that there are not very successful recruiters who have been billing millions of dollars without a degree..

For a company to require a degree for positions, especially in an industry that normally does not require one, my question is Why? and wow, if any diverse, protected class, successful candidate crosses your door and you don?t consider their application ? they have grounds to have an audit started by the EEOC..

Why take that risk? Is it really necessary to have that degree? Why? What proof do you have that the piece of paper is going to allow that person to do a better job..

I end with One of the Supreme Court?s earliest interpretations of Title VII: ?History is filled with examples of men and women who rendered highly effective performance without the conventional badges of accomplishment in terms of certificates, diplomas, or degrees. Diplomas and tests are useful servants, but Congress has mandated the commonsense proposition that they are not to become masters of reality??