Kenneth
Trudy was highlighted in ERE on 11/24/2003 and 10/24/2005. She was profiled in the WSJ on 10/3/2005 in the Theory & Practice Column by Erin White

Libby Sartain is VP at Yahoo and was foremerly VP at SW Airlines. She has been chairwoman of National SHRM and wrote the book HR from the heart (it is on Amazon). She is also highlighted in this week’s BusinessWeek. I have never mentioned her on ERE before.

John

There is something I would based upon some of the opinions presented ?

Kenneth and Anthony have made an excellent observation they should not be ignored ? I find it commendable that the author has had great accomplishments in the Past 30+ years, a great feat for sure; But In the ever changing environment of not only our industry but also the workforce it is interesting that the Author still uses information from Actual Personal Recruiting experience from over 20+ years ago.

Times Change, Legal implications change, and the diverse shifting in societal culture has shaped distinctly contradictory opinions, attitude, beliefs and views – what could have easily been implemented in another era can generate unknown hazards today if one is not consistently mindful or are resistant in the shift of ethos

Often I look at my daughter?s clothes and think how similar they are to what I wore 20 years ago, and wish I kept all my stuff, but then again, the fashion is only similar, not the same, and of course would they fit her size or taste. Of course they are cut differently, the color trends are not the same and there are some other aspects which would not allow what I wore then to be fashionable today.

Lou Adler, Doug Beabout, Gary Stauble, Peter Lefkow, Kevin Wheeler, Rob McIntosh are examples of trainers/authors/recruiters who provide actual, present real time experience ? they understanding the challenges that recruiters face each day in today?s recruiting environment as they are confronting those same difficulties whilst running an active recruiting desk themselves. Their training is based upon a current practice.

Also with respect to Your Credentials, it is true that there are many of us who may not have the education of others, but with respect to many of my peers on ERE, lack of formal education does not signify ignorance, or that a person is “na?ve” and there are many intelligent people who do live in “kansas” – Walter Chrysler, Amelia Earhart, Milton S. Eisenhower, Clark M. Clifford to name a few.

There are many of us on this network who have LIVED and worked in both Europe and the U.S (myself included), who have traveled the world, who are currently working for fortune 50 companies overseeing over 100k employees. And Yes, there are some of us who have had our work and opinions published as well in different languages in several famous papers and subscriptions, in different countries. We may not discuss it, may have used different names but on this network we do exist.

The sum total of an individual’s experience does allow for knowledge and skill may it be through observation, or reasoning, it does not come only from earning a degree. Practical recruiting exposure and involvement brings about a direct personal awareness of today?s recruiting culture and with these changing times. Valuable information can be derived from others who have gained knowledge acquired experience.

So with that in mind is it not necessary to give a clear depiction providing vital combinations of circumstances outlying how certain things may apply in today’s society?

Is it not instrumental to expose or offer a tentative explanation of potential vulnerabilities thus allowing others who may be less informed to make a conversant decision on how to implement the details in a way that may better work for them, the company they work for or in the culture/society in which they are entrenched?

As I said earlier, A conflicting view is neither right or wrong. It is about taking the best, leaving the rest, and recognizing that what works for one culture may not for another – or for that matter another era, may not fit as well in today’s society.

Dr Sullivan’s article said the following about Europe.

Yes, I know it’s a continent, but when it comes to recruiting, Europe is a dinosaur still enclosed in amber. In a business world where speed, innovation, and first to market are critical, no one cares about your traditions or ‘the way you have always done things.’ Change the way you recruit, retain, and develop the most innovative workers in the world or risk becoming irrelevant.

How can any one person know how thousands of companies recruit in many different countries? The statement is just too general and therefore pointless.

It’s a (blinkered) personal opinion rather than fact and I did not see the relevance of the text you posted to what was actually said.

Whatever, the performance of the economies in Europe, and there are many of them, not one, I still fail to see what it has to do with the processes companies use to recruit.

You also said:

‘But I’m still looking hard for the feature story in Business Week or The Economist entitled, ‘Best and Brightest Stack up on EU Borders’.’

Why are you looking?

Dr. Sullivan, have you actually ever lived and recruited for any long periods of time outside of the US and for non-US managed/owned firms. Clearly I think you?ve had very limited experience of this. So, as somebody that has lived and worked in recruitment and been employed by local firms in Texas, mainland Europe, UK and now Australia, my door is always open should you need to learn more, which judging by your article you obviously do.

2) I have re-read my post, and cannot find the phrase ‘social worker’ anywhere within it.

3) I posted: ‘…an entire generation of breathtakingly aggressive Asian and Indian capitalists can?t imagine anything more helpful to them than business as usual in the EU ? AND THE US, FOR THAT MATTER [emphasis added] — especially when it comes to acquiring and retaining A-players’. What’s ‘aggressive’ or jingoistic about that?

4) The McKinsey article I quoted presented facts about the performance of the European economy AS A WHOLE. We all know that each country in Europe is as different from each other as Wisconsin is from West Virginia. And we all know that Europe, and Gabon, and Venezuela, and the West Bank, and Ohio, where I have lived all my life, and every other economically underperforming region of the world is home to many discrete examples of business ingenuity and success. But I’m still looking hard for the feature story in Business Week or The Economist entitled, ‘Best and Brightest Stack up on EU Borders’.

5) (I can’t get to 12). The reference to me being a bully is flattering, but odd. I am the least intimidating human being you ever met. Even when I shaved my head and tatooed my bicep, people just shook their heads. It was embarassing.

6) I agree with you about Maureen.

Thanks for putting India up there as an emerging challenger . In India the challenge we face is not just about right recruiting but retaining the interest of the candidate long enough for him to join the organization. And I speak this not only from the perspective of a corporate recruiter , who works with many a staffing giants in India, but also from the staffing teams viewpoint. The job market in India is very distict from either US or Europe ( rather what I know of it).
It is simply innovative thinking, challenging yourself, and utilising the resources available to their optimum that brings results.

Blogging is something that we have not yet explored but I am sure could be a good tool when it comes to candidates who Blog.. and not everyone in India does.

We work with Moster & I agree they not only need to revamp but realign themselves to realize the potential of the country they work for. If they believe what works in US will work in other countries, its high time they relook.

Whether your are in India or anywhere in the world what is needed is a strong Branding & Marketing exercise to build your Image , but what is required post that is to offer employees a satisfaction of identifying with your brand by giving them what the Brand portrays & here I agree with Karen Mattonen C.A.C. As employers we need to create ?raving Fans? of our employees / candidates,which will provide us the ability to tap into their social network for mutual benfit

Mr. Adamsky & Mr. Adler,I have had a great time reading & learning from your articles too. I do wish that in this best practices sharing forum, some more Interest can be generated for India – it is THE emerging market for all

http://www.ocwen.com

Where I think my opinion falls somewhere between Dr. John’s and Tony’s is what I personally see as the extreme cases of ERE particiption. I don’t want to take anything away from people that have graciously given their (personal?) time to help others. But not all of us can do that. My devotion is to my employer (it’s that crazy paycheck thing), so invitations from forum leaders to get more involved or teach some of the members about blogging are beyond what I personally am able to do (especially since I get requests to teach people about blogging all the time and I generally refer them to resources for them to learn from). Not all of us are equipped to participate in one:few coaching and sharing.

I guess my perspective is that this is my work and sharing with my peers makes me a better (more educated) employee, but there is a point of diminishing returns when it takes away from my work time.

My point is (yes, there’s a point) that a happy medium exists. We each need to determine what that looks like for ourselves. But in my opinion, it falls somewhere between post-article radio silence and over-involvement in all things ERE (not meant to be critical of any specific persons…again, we all make our own call on what that means). There’s a balance between devotion to your professional community and devotion to your employer. That’s just how I see it.

Let?s not get carried away by selective reading and go Europe bashing because it?s easy from over there. I live with the awkwardness of Europeans every working day including the brits. I also spend 52 weeks a year working in Europe which is possibly more useful than a 2 week a year visit.

Like I said before, you cannot compare the US with Europe. You cannot even compare one country in Europe with another. To think all countries over here are the same and to make a sweeping statement that covers them all is lacking understanding. For example, how does meeting with some people in Belgium help to understand how we recruit in the UK or how they recruit in Germany or Sweden or Norway etc etc?..

I would never trash someone else?s cultures and traditions because they didn?t agree with what I had to say and insist that they have to change their ways.

If you want to work in another country or region, you should embrace and understand the way that country works and either work around it or not try to do business there. You cannot march in boot ?n? all from a different continent and expect everyone to do it your way or no way because you consider yourself to be innovative or ahead of the curve in your own country.

All this talk of aggression, calling people that dare to oppose you social workers and stating that you?re holding off attacking these social workers only because someone else has asked you to, says it all. Intimidation. Don?t argue with me, just agree with me or else.

Any excuse to not respond to specific questions (I asked 12) is just that, an excuse.

If anyone wants to post an article on ERE, they should be prepared to respond to comments publicly rather than in private otherwise why say anything. They would if they were true leaders because their purpose would be to teach others. I guess that?s the nice thing about social workers. Their priority is to help others first rather than only really being interested in self promotion.

I read ERE to find new ideas and to help me in my everyday job as a headhunter. I consider innovation to be new ideas, not old ones rehashed or bad sales practices being brought into recruitment in desperation to achieve results.

In the 8 months I have been using ERE, there are two people that stand out for me that genuinely try to help others and add value without expecting personal glory in return.

Everything they do comes across as 100% sincere. They put to shame some ?experts? whose only real goal is personal gain.

I don?t have personal dialogue with either of these people but I would like to thank them publicly for their contribution because their comments and suggestions add true value to what really matters in this job. No fancy ideas, no claims to be leaders or experts, no claims to be innovative or ahead of the curve. Just good solid advice and ideas that everyone can benefit from.

Thank you Maureen and Barry.

I’m more interested in the discussion than in simply nominating people to be included in your list. We should all be keeping our own list anyway. I mean, if someone knows about a company or person that is doing something great, please feel free to share it with all of us, not just Dr. John.

‘Anyway, I’d be happy to e-mail or speak with you directly if you want my opinion on your list ; ) ‘

I wasn’t soliciting comments on my list (although that is fine) as much as additions by readers of ahead of the curve people that have come across during the last year.

Who are the other ‘ahead of the curve’ people so that everyone will know them?

John Sullivan

As my Great Grandson would say, ‘U da man’.

Appreciate your thoughts & directness.

Happy New Year (everyone).

Jon

Is it someone who is concerned about the legal crossfire that has been on this industry this past year?

Is it someone who cares about the truth, what THEY believe is true, whether it may disagree with another?

Or is it someone who may have concern about the ethical entity and regard of this industry?

John, you mention that you present much research, but I have seen many others (including myself) put as much effort in presenting accurate and valid research on ERE themselves.

Research can present pros and cons in many subjects including the laws of physics for example- does that make the information wrong or incorrect, or even invalid.

Nothing is black and white in this day and age. There truly is no absolutes for sure (as was determined in previous posts). Things change and progress so rapidly, that what was true last year is no longer the truth today. (law of relativity is a good example)

John You have your truth, and others have their own. Does it mean that all must be discounted, especially if one disagrees with another.

We may not all share the same views, values or opinions on many things, but there are is something everyone can bring to the table that can provide some value to others.

Heather did make a good point, many are scared to voice an opinion on ERE as they are concerned of the Flak that will come from disagreeing from the specialty network. Often times the voice on ERE can appear slanted due to fear. (look at the number of people on this network, compared to those who do respond online)

I have received much of my own share of flack for sure, but I too have received my fair share of e-mails off line, there are many who do agree with you, but there are others who don’t.

Should not both sides be heard fairly, and with dignity? Without Lables such as detractors, social workers, and such like. Allow everyone to take what they want, and then they can leave the rest – whatever that may be. What is right for some, is not right for others.

This is MY truth, what is Yours?

Now Dr. John, you know that I, for one, am glad to see you respond and I personally wish you would do it more often! I think that the unfortunate thing is that your articles do get peoples’ dander up and when you don’t reply in the forums, there’s the perception that you just drop the bomb and then walk away from the wreckage. There may be some ‘social workers’ (as you put it) here, but there are others of us that are interested in furthering the profession or at least ourselves professionally. There are also the people that will praise anything you say no matter what. It’s a mixed bag…it’s a public forum where eveyone gets to share and learn. Not the same with private e-mails.

Also, to be quite frank, some people are afraid of you but they are still interested in the dialog. I know that there are people that will not contact you directly because of how they feel they will be received and/or the nature of the response. I’m a direct person too so I obviously enjoy your frankness, but not everyone is like us ; )

Anyway, I’d be happy to e-mail or speak with you directly if you want my opinion on your list ; )

‘that I see no indication that Dr.John is even reading this. Feels like we have kind of been here before ; ) ‘

LOL, Heather, I read EVERY post, no exceptions. I find that most are well written and defend ?their? position well. The reasons I don’t respond to criticisms, unless specifically asked, include:

(pardon my generalizations here)

1) I find that the typical poster here provides no constructive alternatives to my or other author?s posts or solutions. They almost always say something ‘can’t work’, while I have actually seen it work. As a result, I see many comments as naive. Provide better solution and I will be impressed.

2) I have many forums to express my work, (my articles in ERE and in other Journals) so I see no sense in taking up ‘your’ space here, which is specifically designed for non-authors.

3) I find most posts on this forum to be from ‘can’t do’ or ‘no? people. They see problems in everything new and they defend the status quo. I assume that they live in ‘Kansas’ or something and have just not seen the latest advances. I have been to ?India? , for example, and the best there are 10 times more progressive than the ?Kansas? recruiter. Amazing things are happening in recruiting (i.e. India, Google and Quicken loans) but ?that will never work? people don?t want to hear it or believe it.

4) Many people attack my credentials or knowledge automatically because I am a professor or they are too lazy to do their research. I do listen to people that do their homework before they make comments but not to those that have opinions but no facts. I find it distasteful to brag on my work, so I don’t respond to the ‘he’s never been to Europe’ or ‘he’s a academic’ type comments. They are just silly (OK, one time only, here are some bona fidies. I have been the Chief Talent officer for a 43,000 employee high tech firm, my work has been translated into 23 languages, I spend at least 2 weeks in Europe every year and I am on the road up to 200 days a year consulting and learning around the world (in 24 different countries so far). I have written 6 books and have had over 600 articles and whitepapers included in practical business publications. I have appeared on the CBS and the ABC national nightly news as well as on CNN. You will find my solutions featured in everything from Fast Company magazine to the WSJ and I have been in HR since 1969!)

5) I get hundreds of personal e-mails (Johns@sfsu.edu) from ERE readers and I respond directly to them. The volume of my comments go there because I can attach long but complete solutions and answers in an e-mail. But that just doesn’t work in this quick sound bite opinion forum.

6) I am an aggressive, ‘show me the money and the numbers person’. This forum on the other hand is for personal opinions, so I am not a ‘fit’ here. I read every post but as I said in my last article, I am not a social worker, so I just see no business value in the ‘socialist’ posts that ‘occasionally’ dominate this forum. I also only work for large corporations and since most of the posters seem to be 3rd party professionals, again I don’t ‘fit’ here.

7) I have been specifically asked by a frequent Forum poster (Steve Levy) not to attack one frequent poster, so I have held off attacking all ?social workers? for awhile.

8) And last, some of the comments just make no logical sense to me. For example, ‘he always talks about the same people and firms’. No shit, there are some people and firms that are always in the top 10%, so of course I mention them. Just like Jack Welsh is always mentioned among great CEO’s and that damn Lance Armstrong keeps getting mentioned in bicycling. These lists just don’t change much each year because the best of anything doesn’t change much.

Other comments like ‘where are the women’ make me laugh. First of all there were women on the list but second, why didn’t the poster mention that there were also no children, football players, iguanas, unemployed people or Russians on the list either? People that see everything through their ‘own’ self interest (in this case womenkind) fail my fair representation and logic test. I didn’t include a single Professor (like myself), why didn’t the poster mention that?

So Heather or anyone else… if you or others actually want an aggressive response, send me a direct e-mail and I won’t clutter the forum. But if you really want a public response, just include in your Forum post this quote… ?John, will you respond specifically to this specific question?? and I will. Otherwise, criticize away on the Forum without fear of being challenged (by me anyway). For if you actually believe for example that ‘Europe is on the cutting edge of developing new recruiting innovations’ this is the place to post away.

John Sullivan

”labyrinth of disconnected-from?reality worker benefits”

Sometimes you run accross an expression of thought which taps into your brain and lets out the idea-syrup you never knew needed to get out, like tapping into a tree to get good old maple syrup. There’s that pressure build-up in one’s head on a particuilar topic, and when one reads about the topic, there’s that odd pressure, that thought-bloating. Then comes a way to say it, to get it alllllll out. The well-crafted phrase above does that trick, at least for me…

Europeans…. Sorry, Jean-Marc, I’m European too, but I don’t need natural light at my desk, when I bask in the glow of knowing my Government loves me…And cares for me… and will be there when …[new age music fade-in... pan to smooth mug of international coffee, gently picked up by smartly-dressed actor... takes a hearty sip... cut. ]

Ladies and Gents have patted each other on the same backs all year. It’s a circle of friends and I’m okay with that. It’s not like they are trying to hide it.

Besides, if thet didn’t pat each other on the back, who would?

I seldom comment on these forums because of the hysteria that can accompany certain viewpoints but let me say one thing that is pointed in the direction of the perceived under representation of women in John?s list.

The equality all decent and fair-minded people seek will NEVER?EVER be attained if we look at how many people represented are men and how many are women. That action forces us to focus on the gender of individuals listed as opposed to the content of their contributions. This might sound counterintuitive but when Dr King spoke of ?a society that judges people by the content of their character and not the color of their skin,? I believe he wanted people to be judged on what they do and ONLY on what they do. Anything else is the disease of political correctness and we as a country can ill afford any more of that nonsense to permeate our thinking.

Want to make the list next year? So do I. Lets all compete by doing great, cutting edge and innovative things so we can be mentioned based upon the value we have added and not the gender we have been so randomly assigned.

Howard Adamsky
http://www.howardadamsky.com

So, let’s take a (mercifully brief) look at the results of the prevailing sense in Europe that ‘social justice’ (sidebar: carefully secure your wallet or purse whenever you see or hear that phrase), employee ?welfare?, and ‘job security’ trump customer and/or investor satisfaction in a global market for good s and services.

From the September 2005 issue of The McKinsey Quarterly:

?Europe is in a political crisis… Voters rejected the proposed [EU] constitution for many reasons, but the biggest factor was discontent over Europe’s economic performance. The pace of growth in the European Union’s core economies has been dismal… In a recent speech, Vladimir Spidla, a member of the European Commission, summed up the problem: ‘We cannot accept 17 million unemployed, average economic growth of 0.6 percent in the old member states, and youth unemployment of 18.6 percent in the 25-member European Union. Change begins in our own minds.’

The article, available here (registration required: http://www.mckinseyquarterly.com/) identifies many of the root causes for Europe?s economic underperformance, only one of which is its labyrinth of disconnected-from?reality worker benefits. It even offers (this is don?t-offend-anyone McKinsey, after all) that EU countries need not abandon their more-generous, versus the US, regulatory commitments to their ?most vulnerable citizens?. But, of course, as the article points out, the laws of gravity can never be repealed:

?Parts of Europe’s current regulatory framework focus on protecting society to the detriment of competition, perversely making Europeans more susceptible to the consequences of the region’s flagging competitiveness…? Duh.

I recruit in Northern and Western Europe. And a bit in Asia. Enough that it?s clear to me, anyway, that an entire generation of breathtakingly aggressive Asian and Indian capitalists can?t imagine anything more helpful to them than business as usual in the EU ? and the US, for that matter — especially when it comes to acquiring and retaining A-players.

PS – Merry Christmas to all, and thank you all for a year of thought-provoking and fun dialogue. It’s all good here.