About a year ago, (gee, no actually it has only been a couple of months) I initially presented a post expressing a concern for what I thought as irresponsible advice due to lack of information.

I had not discussed ethics or morals, only presented suggestions as to hopefully avoid unforessen problems that could possibly occur.

THEN, I did not disagree with the value of Aggressive Corporate or TPR Recruiting, nor cold calling and I still don’t today..

Anyways this is what was actually said (tweaked a little) -
’1. Be aware of your Associations and Industry Laws – Some association do have extremely strict federal governing laws that can wreck havoc ie financial, real estate, insurance.. – one does NOT want the feds involved. (some of these laws are based upon privacy ie financial institutions, that can affect the recruiting process) Watch out for conflict of interest.
2. If the Union affects your industry also be aware of the STATE laws affecting recruiting, MOST states have very similar laws noted in my last post.
3. Know the Unfair Competition laws of your STATE or the state you are recruiting from, since that could be a hassle, try relying on common sense.
4. ASK questions – Do you have a non compete, are you on a contract, non disclosure, or an anti raiding provision in your clause. Be aware of all Restrictive Covenants. You DO not want to be held liable for helping that individual breaking that contract. ‘Even though the employee has a right to work, they have a legal binding contract that a third party intentionally helped break and the possessor of a contract or other property right is entitled to pursue a claim against an intermeddler who adversely affects those property rights’
5. Do not at any time Launch a campaign to RAID, POACH or act in a Way that may be considered Predatory – that is setting up red flags which now helps give your competitor a legal fighting chance in court. This ups his proof against you at your perceived intent. Be selective, be smart, raiding a whole department at ONE time, not smart. Recruit from more than one company over a period of time is probably smarter… Hiring an individual just to take him away from a competitor not smart, Hiring individuals to impede a business Really not smart. (Employee poaching law are also in effect in CA, Europe and England – common law maybe?)
6. DO Not go after a company when they are hurting to ‘put them out of their misery’ Montgomery Ward V Sears The court ruled that one company may not hire away employees of another company with the intent of crippling that company. SAP V Siebel(settled out of court) (The government likes competition in business – it means more money for the economy and taxes for them… LOL)
7. Stay honest and legal in your postings and interview, (this is also where the government agencies and EEOC, even private individuals can come after you..YES they have been known individuals respond to these posts and interview to test companies. see Molovinsky v. Fair Employment Council of Greater Washington)
8. Be careful how you discuss your competitor at ALL Times.. It does get back..
9. Anyways, it really does boil down to commonsense; there are many things we all need to look out for regarding recruiting. Knowing your information does and will protect you. Joining a group like SHRM or NAPS also keeps you up to date on the new legal changes.. They can happen quickly
10. Definitely Talk to your EMPLOYMENT lawyer (be honest about ALL your intended actions, or current). Read your Employer handbook.. Corporate and Business Lawyers are not always up to date to the New Legal Bills Pending or Passed’

PLEASE bear with me as I add this personal side note- YES I do recruit, cold call, the works..
But I don’t lie; Everyday, I try implement and follow professional and responsible business standards which can still allow me to be a valuable resource to my clients and candidates.

Why? Because it is of MY personal opinion that lying and certain recruiting behaviors can hurt others, and also has the possibility to cause unnecessary harm to companies. Harm which can be avoided, especially if it was done so with intent.

So I apologize if my personal opinions offend some and thanks very much for the support from those I have not.

As for that contract, is it an existing client or is this the first time you’ve ever worked with them.

If it’s the first time, you made a mistake with your contract. My fee agreements always have the clause (paraphrased) that I will not recruit out of their company for one year AFTER their last hire from me.

So, signing a contract to keep me from sourcing their company (which I consider a lie and unethical) won’t work. They have to hire from me first. If they turn that clause down, it’s a sure sign they aren’t interested in really hiring.

Thanks,

In speaking to several individuals off and online, one thing that has come up is that there is a lack of awarenes, education and knowledge.

There are several of us who have received appreciation from others because they had been taught a specific method and had not felt comfortable with it, and now they are aware that others feel the same, and are greatful to learn about other options.

I wonder, is it really that far of a stretch? This topic has been a strong topic for many. We have heard strong opinons from both sides. So maybe this is a time to keep it going and see where it goes?

I Personally think (yes my opinion) that it is too important of a subject to just let it go; There is too many people involved that it affects. Any thoughts???

This is one of the challenges with this medium…it’s hard to relize that you don’t need to repeat the same arguments over…they live in perpetuity where you posted them. The re-hashing starts to get a bit much. Anyone else feel this way?

I’m looking forward to some new topics to discuss!

If people don’t know what is ethical and what isn’t ethical by now, they never will. Maybe they should find a different profession.

Hands up everyone who thinks it’s time to move on.

Maybe one of the Association National or Chapter Ethics Committees could also be invited to inform/educate the recruiting committee of the Ethics that Are in place for this industry, that may also present more physical understanding, and reduce confusion regarding what is actually considered to be Personal versus Standard Ethics of our industry?

This may be one of the most important things that we may have missed at the ERE Conventions. It is definitely addressed at the other (Our industry) Trade Conventions, and For ANY other Trade for that matter. (Not pointing fingers ERE). Ethics in any industry is frequently a focus at trade meetings and conventions.

Maybe it is time we consider putting focus on this topic as well.

Knowledge is key, so maybe this is where there is often a breakdown on communication.

ER Expo San Diego the ERE people host an Ethics Debate … keep it professional & invite only.

thoughts?

2. It’s a misconception to assume that anyone using a TPR is automatically using a company that uses bad practices. Simply put, not all TPRs need to or do use dodgy practices. Please let’s not forget that the original article was about a Corporate Recruiter, not a TPR.

3. If a company offers a bonus to their employees for a referral system, it is a positive action. It is not bribery because it is not compulsory. This is wholy different to bribing new employees with a job offer to get names of their colleagues. This is compulsory.

4. As a TPR we target several companies for any one position. The purpose is to find suitable candidates for our Clients. This is very different to having the intent to deliberately harm the target company. Previous article writers have in fact actively suggested using this ‘harm your competition’ tactic as the primary focus. ‘Employ them whether you need them or not’ was the suggestion.

Had your article been written pre Sullivan, I suspect the overall response would have been more positive. Because it is post Sullivan, it is getting negative comments that I suspect are really still aimed at the original. Your article has just got in the way.

It?s like when somebody asks what I do and after explaining ?I find people already successful in what they do, then I call them directly to see if they?re open to a possible opportunity to do it better somewhere else,? (the people I find aren?t posting resumes on job boards, and don?t want their CVs circulated/routed around), and if the person says ?Ah-ha? You?re a HEADHUNTER!,? I like to reply (just to amuse myself) ?Hey, don?t call me that? I prefer the term BODYSNATCHER!? I always thought ?Competitive Intelligence? referred to companies wanting to have a database of their competition?s major players on hand for succession planning. So, what do I call my non-internet name-generating techniques? SELECTIVE TRUTH-TELLING. Not Lying? just saying the right thing to the right person at the right time in the right way (or asking the right question/s?)

We researchers/name generators always wondered why the heck it would take the consultants so long to close a search. And, it was sooo frustrating to have spent hours (but not weeks, mind you) on the phone, finding the best people for them to talk with, only to have the research sitting on their desk unused day after day, because they first wanted to rely on their ?networking/referral-sourcing? techniques? I remember one hiring manager saying, ?Wow ? how did you get all these names?!? and, after joking that I just made them up, I told him that what I do is ?Smile and Dial; and say whatever it takes within reason, and within legal boundaries?? to get the information. I?m always hesitant to divulge exactly what I say, because what works for me may not work for you, AND what works for me in one instance certainly does not necessarily work in another.

I am totally amazed at the ?cold call reluctance? so many have? So, just call it a warm or hot call, and PICK UP THE PHONE! I?m beginning to think some people are resentful about Lou?s article and picking apart his words because they really don?t have a clue how to go about conducting initial telephone research to find passive candidates? prospects, & sources. Or, somehow it intimidates them? and so, they don?t want to do it that way. Well, you know what? I was fortunate enough to attend a seminar last month on ?Source of Hire: Are You Employing the Best Channel to Find Top Talent?? Of course I enjoyed the opportunity to actually meet the speaker Gerry Crispin, SPHR, & Coauthor of CareerXroads, who provided some good, proven data/statistics about our business, one which really ?grabbed? my attention that I want to share with all of you: ?77.5% (of all high-end placements) are made through RESEARCH GENERATED LEADS?? NOT resume databases, NOT employee referrals or non-employee referrals, NOT your good ol? boy networking, etc. Is that awesome or what?? So ? deal with it! And, to Lou Adler (and,Gerry Crispin): You (both) Rock!; and, to Fellow ?Researchers/Sourcers?? rock on!

‘A good beginning is more than half the search. Let me help you leverage your time.’ gb, dba Belle Associates Inc.
unbundled Executive Search/Recruiting Services

Yes I think you are right, maybe it is time to stop utilizing the word War, and Guerilla tactics when we discuss what we do for a living.

We are recruiters, we provide opportunities to improve the quality of life to people. People leave because they are not happy, and we are in the business to provide better opts to them, NOT just try to make a buck at the expense of others. Yes, there are issues doing the ?predatory recruiting? (by the way, 5 states Recently applied those words to their State Laws ? check Utah for EG) which also states – ‘unfair competition’ does not include the departure and hiring of an employee by a competitor

Just because I don’t use Job Boards, through Networking I am able to find individuals who are also unemployed. My reach goes to the masses in my industry.

The word Hypocrisy and ethics are being so misused to be able to justify behavior that is considered Socially Unacceptable. Please see my previous response.
We and the courts acknowledge that recruiting is legal, thus not unacceptable, as long as it is done to find individuals for specific opts, ? thus we are not hypocrites in recruiting unlike your statements.

What we object to is business fraud, lack of business ethics, lack of Responsible Business Behavior, because it Hurts The Credibility of this industry, it hurts other people, it hurts businesses. Especially when there is No NEED to lie. It is Possible to do this Job w/o those type of tactics.

**To summarize then, the law regarding ‘predatory hiring’ or ‘raiding’ of employees requires a showing of an improper motive by the former employee to injure the business of the former. Also, the ‘means’ used to hire the employees away must be ‘improper.’
(48 Hastings Law Journal 981, 989.)

Lot’s of arguments/questions reduced to the ridiculous. How do YOU think an Average Sales Person who sells widgets gets past the gatekeeper. Maybe some people should consider taking a sales 101 class or consider a new career if they think lying is the only way to do this job.

There IS a difference between Personal Values and Ethics – Ethics are based upon Societal Rules due to impact and Concern of Common good to the Public –
Before there were societies, before there were religions, there were Ethics.(Aristotle)

Ethics ranked high in the realm of human knowledge long before religion claimed ownership of moral authority. It is the Voice of Democracy.

It’s what keeps us from killing each other, from hurting others’ feelings and from being detrimental to ourselves as a species.

as per Ethics Resource Center http://www.ethics.org/ask_e4.html
Defining what is ethical is not an individual exercise however. If it were then one could have argued that what Hitler did was ethical since his actions conformed to his definition of right, fair and good. The ethics of our decisions and actions is defined societal, not individually.

We are dealing with Peoples Lives, and our actions can affect Businesses Profits, Personal Values don’t play a part in business. It don’t work.. We have seen that in History.

Here?s another point of view on this whole topic that should be openly debated. I did not originate it, but it came from someone who was concerned about how their reputation could be affected.

1. Many of the arguments against my point of view revolved around the idea that employees have free will and we as recruiters are legally permitted to offer them new opportunities. I openly and actively support this view. I also want to thank Karen and Heather for their eloquent, professional and insightful remarks. But what about all of the people whose names are not on the Internet or published in some public document? Don?t these people have the same rights to have recruiters call them? Shouldn?t 100% of the employees be allowed the same access to new opportunities rather than just the 20% or so of names that are listed or the 5% more gotten through referrals? Shouldn?t any means to get their names be openly supported to give every employee in the U.S. the same rights?

This topic is worthy of debate. Now here?s a quick summary of the key points of my article which was about hypocrisy, not advocating the use of dishonest means to find candidates.

2. I find it difficult to understand how recruiters on this forum can publicly malign people who use misleading name gathering tactics when they employ people to do this for them anyway. Companies purchase names that were developed this way, and they use TPRs who do this. This seems like hypocrisy to me.
3. I?m not sure that using misleading techniques to gather names is any worse than other recruiting techniques company?s openly use. I believe bribery is an extremely dishonest if not illegal means to gather names. Yet corporations bribe their employees to give them names, but this is apparently okay if we call it an employee referral program. This seems like hypocrisy to me.
4. The bigger non-crime in all of this is the aggressive poaching we recruiters are trained to do by targeting another company?s employees in order to lure them away. We all forget that this causes economic harm to the other employer which in some cases is very severe. So the morality of all this is ignored, because it?s legal and candidates can say no, etc. I support these aggressive recruiting tactics, so I am part of this community. Yet at the same time I?m disturbed by some of the very public and open warfare now going on between companies. Ignoring the morality here, yet getting worked up about using misleading information to obtain names seems like hypocrisy to me.

Bringing this subject to the level of honest debate and to discuss the hypocrisy of it all was the point of my article. Let?s get more people involved. This topic needs to openly discussed without fear of being attacked, or else we?ll only hear one side of the issue. I wonder how many other good ideas are not being heard?

I cant believe we ( the greater ‘smaller’ ERE community) are still harping on about ‘Ethics Morals, Lies, Evild Doers, Terrorists and World Hunger’.

Simple truth, if you want to get information as a recruiter you will tell an untruth, or circumvent the truth….PERIOD. I dont want to say…LIE as that will no doubt erupt in a plethora of postings on ethics morals and the inability of all recruiters to do their job.

When a ‘gatekeeper’ asks you a direct question.. ‘why are you calling?’ do you give the honest answer ‘to talk to our employee about a potential job opportunity’.. I dont think so, then comes the untruth / circumvention.

I think Deborah and Bill said it the best to a larger or lesser extent.

Everything else is different shades of grey.

Eamonn

In all due respect, RECRUITING IS what we do. Unless you are searching for Cross-over (the new name for Station Wagon) words with bad connotations. We recruit like the Army does, except, when a prospect cannot legally join on their own free will (as a minor), they need their parents’ permission. And, according to some recent charges, even the Army lies too (about not going to Iraq).

Of course, with the many questionable activities (starting with lying), I guess stealing or poaching better fits the act. Or you could come up with a new word to join 1400 just added to the new dictionary:
‘Deceitful-purloinment’? ‘Searchful-deceit’? ‘Felony communication with priors’? ‘Entrapped Cross-over’?

Jon

Seems there is quite a lively debate on this issue and I confess I am happy to be a part of it.

Clearly everyone makes their own distinctions and judgements as to what they, as an individual, consider an ‘ethical’ approach to recruiting.

I do, however, want to address your comment on productivity. I view my role as being much more long-term focused rather then reactionary in nature. Meaning? My job is to network with the talent my clients are interested in attracting in advance of the actual role being available. I build the talent pipeline.

Am I sometimes called upon to be reactive? Of course. And having built that pipeline, I know who to react with.

It does take time, and patience, and relationship building. We never have enough of the first (no matter your methods), I have plenty of the second, and I love the third.

So I am able to be productive, satisfy the needs of my clients, and still adhere to my personal standards of ethics (which are aligned with my emloyer’s or I would not be here).

Todd

There is an excellent article in the Fordyce Letter ‘where do you belong in the recruiting food chain.’ excellent piece and worth reading, author Doug Beabout.

Great thing I remembered in my Snelling Training at corporate – Don’t lie, and there is no need to do so, always keep it clean.

Yes, YOU CAN recruit and WELL and get to know your market w/o Job Boards, the internet, lying to the gatekeeper, rusing, spamming, or using
company directories (which by the way is illegal to own, check the privacy information). This is in Recruiting Training 101 for goodness sake.

There are many of us sanctimonious recruiters who are aware of the possible ways, why not give us a call.. Many of us are willing to share. We do practice what we preach?

Re the aspect of business ethics being subjective, well if that is the case why is this such a hot topic? Why is it (lack of ethics) acknowledged as being a concern by the masses? Where is Enron today?
As was well put earlier, we will argue subjective, objective or personal, ?generalities? so that we can justify, excuse and feel more comfortable doing something we recognize as socially irresponsible.

I will repeat myself again ? People, lack of ethics and social responsibilities does create laws. If we cannot pull ourselves in, behave more judicial towards the General Public, and cannot come to terms as to what is Right or Wrong, then there will be others who will make that decision for us.
IS that what WE REALLY WANT or is it What WE NEED to happen.

There are varying techniques of CI and Lou is simply pointing out what has worked for him. Every company has gatekeepers – and we as recruiters have to generate names, leads, and contacts. I have had a recruiter who uses his military experience to get past the gatekeepers for candidate sourcing. On the other hand, I have another recruiter who uses the same techniques that Lou does, but she uses the fact that she is a woman with an attractive voice and she gains new clients and referrals everyday.

Employers have internal referral programs and career sites have external referral programs. It is naive to suggest that poaching and CI of other competitors’ employees is not a daily thing. Welcome to the free market! This is capitalism. The best candidates work for your competitors. Everyone – does not matter who you are – is open to an OPPORTUNITY. And recruiters have a responsibility to Hiring Managers to seek out and offer those opportunities to the employees of a company’s competitors. Call it rusing, call it dishonesty if you must, the simple fact is that being upfront about why you are calling to a gatekeeper yields zero results.
It is now and has always been a candidates’ market in the good ole’ USA. I know that I could lose my CEO or CFO at any time – IF the right opportunity comes their way. And the CI that Lou advocates is exactly how it’s done in reaching them.

The Internet does provide data mining, but it is still young. The online recruitment industry, unfortunately, is still dominated by ‘tonnage’ experts (recruitment ad agencies and newspapers) who try as they might, are NOT recruiters and therefore cannot attract passive candidates. So non-Internet CI, using techniques to get past the gatekeeper, is what recruiters do. Lou is 100% correct.

Candidates are owned by no one. It is a highly competitive market to reach passive candidates and what Lou advocates is proven techniques that he is sharing. Just how does John suggest we reach passive candidates who have no resume on the market and when the recruiter has no employee phone book? I already know the answer – write better job descriptions, increase employee benefits, spend more $$ with recruitment ad agencies, and social networking sites. Guess what John, NONE of those get to the passive candidate. And Lou’s techniques work.

Kudos to Lou for being honest and sharing.